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 Replies: 27 / Views: 8,393 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Recalling this thread: https://goccf.com/t/171175#1592256As I have pondered/mused about before, with a few select sellers out of Spain such as this who offer some legit material (often buy and flip) but have some bogus stuff mixed in (often with a dose of shill bidding), you wonder if they do it intentionally, or whether they just don't try very hard and it's more of a "don't ask, don't tell" idea. This piece linked below, what would be a scarce grade, is a specimen of a previously observed fake - Mat, the one I'm showing a pic of was offered a while back by that prometeo (or one of his 14 other names) guy that you guys are well familiar with - not sure if we discussed this piece on here or not. http://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-SCARCE...221394572598 Edited by realeswatcher
03/25/2014 4:24 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1962 Posts |
And here are its relatives:  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
HMMM ... Kleeberg CC2Rs ... maybe? ... realeswatcher ... give me some time ... this seller is legit. Tonight. What is the pay rate at CCF?
Benefits? 401K?
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
Austria
566 Posts |
This is indeed a forgery, no doubt. They usually scratch or tarnish such coins in order to prevent the buyer from submitting it to TPG service. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
REALESWATCHER - IMO - Debased silver issues & not off-metals of the period. Not Kleebergs. See Stacks/Baltimore/EAC Session. November 16,2012 Wnuck Collection. Lots - 6896 ONWARD for off-metal high end priced material. This seller bought a high end off-metal Mexican Proclamation Medal from me with an Aureo & Calico pedigree that I purchased privately on a recent trip to Spain from my friend Luis Lalala their chief numismatist which I then sold on ebay for $600+. He is business person that has a taste for off-metal items (LIKE ME). He is legit in the sense that these 2Rs may be coming towards him from simple circulation finds at shows or other dealers feeding him these pieces. These don't appear to me as 20thC Chinese fakes even without looking at the plain SHINY edges. JUST IMO. John Lorenzo United States Edited by colonialjohn
03/25/2014 6:30 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:They usually scratch or tarnish such coins in order to prevent the buyer from submitting it to TPG service. True about the scratching, yes (though that's less of a deterrent now that all the slabbers will details-grade)... I think the more primary purpose of the artificial tone jobs they use is simply to give the appearance of a patina to the unwitting. Quote:
HMMM ... Kleeberg CC2Rs ... maybe? ... realeswatcher ... give me some time ... this seller is legit. John... honestly, it worries me a bit that you'd even entertain an early origin for any of these pieces. I know for you and Bob, the contemp. counterfeits are the main prize - don't let that search cloud the judgment... They are MODERN FAKE, MODERN FAKE, and MODERN FAKE, in that order - zero doubt. The challenge, then, is to work backwards and figure why/how from just those photos, w/o having the pieces in hand to study. And again, as far as this seller goes, as I said in that earlier thread... he's really just a flipper - reselling some good material, and some not so good material. Analyze each piece for what it is... I started looking to see where he might have purchased this 1803 from - nothing yet. Quote:
What is the pay rate at CCF? I use it as an occasional mini-sabbatical when I'm inclined :-> Keeps the mind sharp... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
"He is business person that has a taste for off-metal items (LIKE ME). He is legit in the sense that these 2Rs may be coming towards him from simple circulation finds at shows or other dealers feeding him these pieces." John... it's primarily ebay flipping. I guarantee you the only reason he bought that Proc was because he has a notion that such a thing is super-rare and desirable and he can pump it higher. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Well its rare - the Mex Proclamation Medal ... Luis ... was raving about it ... he gave to it me as a gift at 100 Euros ... should have mentioned made from traceable ORIGINAL obv./rev. dies in GROVES <BG>.
OK ... modern ... but not of the Chinese types I have seen ... whatever ... send me one or more in the mail ... will bring it into the lab ... free shipping on me on the return!
Edited by colonialjohn
03/25/2014 7:32 pm
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I've bought a coint from that seller a couple of weeks ago, bug gave a nutral rating because of shill bidding. Now, he is begging me to remove it, because it's bad for his business.
I don't speak spanish, but used a translator (as usual) - maybe I was not clear, but he tole me I was mistaken ...
I have to do a final answer, but considering what he sells, and that secondary shill bidding account, I don't intend to change my voice.
Indeed, his listing are interesting in the sens that he sometime have interesting stuffs. But great caution should be taken, as they are mixed wish copies - some of which are better made than others (he also has a 8 reales from Santiago, fake ... plus some earlier 8 reales from regular mints which we discussed about here or on the facebook group)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
HMMM ... could be a flip seller ... again Mat with realeswatcher we can only make so many recommendations/judgements without a coin in hand ... and the most important lesson in counterfeit determinations looking at the third side ... which is CRITICAL. Also the question of Modern ... modern as in the last five years ... early 20thC ... whay is realeswatcher DEFINITION of MODERN for these pieces ... ?
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
It's a flip seller I suppose, yes. But what's sure is that shill bidding is not allowed, that's where I attacked her (it's a lady).
Second thing, we know for sure there was fakes in her listing, particularly 8 reales, as some had clear marks similar on different coins (I remember a dot in the middle of the 0 of the date plus other marks). Regarding those, well ... that's not how Santiago coins look like ... and her Santiago 8 reales was also fake for sure (again, clones are around with similar markers)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Mat ... Yes ... a novice coin flipper ... no rip off off artist is going to pay me $650 for an off-metal Mex. Proclamation Medal in bronze? (cant recall the XRF confimred alloy) ... true she probably saw a profit potential consigning it to an auction house (next step) ... you see my point ... speaking again of the realeswatcher Santiagos ... its not worth it ... France >>> US >>> FRANCE ... its cheaper to call these Modern than spending our own money ... they are FAKES ... but are they debased silver or (german silver type alloy///Iron-Nickel Chinese export) products ... JPL can't fix the whole world Mat <VVBG>.
JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
03/26/2014 08:37 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
The off-metal Proc. medal was definitely an interesting piece... I just highly doubt the guy bought it b/c he is any kind of specialized contemporary counterfeit (or proclamation medal) enthusiast.
I don't own any of the pieces I showed - they were personally observed by yours truly online, and based of course on their look, but even more so the source(s) from whence they came (with additional investigatory deduction), they are, to my own absolute and complete satisfaction, undoubtedly modern numismatic fakes - as in last few years modern. And no, not necessarily "typical" Chinese manufacture, but not everything has to be exactly of the same style, does it? That said, these came out of Spain, and I think that's a reasonable guess at their origin.
Edited by realeswatcher
03/26/2014 12:31 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Just as a side note we don't consider debased Ag CC2R of any real value to Kleeberg collectors ... as the frequency of occurance to off-metlas is like >10:1 easily not even considering the Modern Look Chinese crap pieces. Interesting - It was back during the ANS NYC COAC 2000 Conference (see link below) and Phil Mossman and I were talking ... was saying to Phil ... well looks like EVERYBODY who is ANYBODY is here for this COAC dealing with contemporary counterfeits and US Colonials. He then says ... Yes John ... BUT ... one person ... they call this guy ... SWAMPERBOB ... because he is in the middle of nowhere down in the Carolinas (U.S.). Yes ... I said ... he is like this hermit ... I here ... studying all day long these 8 Reales ... Phil responds: I tried to get him up here to NYC and this 2000 COAC to speak but for personal reasons he can't ... so Realeswatcher ... here we are 13 years later publishing this ANS/GNL CC Reale book together with one of Canada's top CC experts Gord Nichols ... <VVBG>. The swamp guy ... true story. http://numismatics.org/Archives/Coachistory |
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New Member
Spain
4 Posts |
Hello..i am Yeimi-vigo(seller from ebay).. about the fake coin sold from me..at the first..yes it is possible I had some problems with some fake coin..but never I never to sell this fake coins with knowing...i buy coins all days in auctions..ebay or conventions and by now I have not enought knowing about americans coins...and little by little I go knowing the fake coins....but please I repeat NEVER but NEVER..i would sell fake coin with knowingly... today I found in a lot that I bought recent..another fake coin from santiago...but it is retired of sell now... here the link: http://www.ebay.es/itm/221408007380....m1558.l2649about the supposed fake 8 reales from santiago that was mentioned here...this coin was adquired in a prestigious auction i will try work better every day..and continue offer good coins in ebay... all the best!! PD: sorry for me english..... |
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New Member
Spain
4 Posts |
Hello..i am Yeimi-vigo(seller from ebay).. about the fake coin sold from me..at the first..yes it is possible I had some problems with some fake coin..but never I never to sell this fake coins with knowing...i buy coins all days in auctions..ebay or conventions and by now I have not enought knowing about americans coins...and little by little I go knowing the fake coins....but please I repeat NEVER but NEVER..i would sell fake coin with knowingly... today I found in a lot that I bought recent..another fake coin from santiago...but it is retired of sell now... here the link: http://www.ebay.es/itm/221408007380....m1558.l2649about the supposed fake 8 reales from santiago that was mentioned here...this coin was adquired in a prestigious auction i will try work better every day..and continue offer good coins in ebay... all the best!! PD: sorry for me english..... |
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Replies: 27 / Views: 8,393 |
Posted 03/25/2014 4:22 pm
