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 Replies: 13 / Views: 1,842 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
04/01/2014 10:55 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
Chopmarks in relief like that one are somewhat scarce, and collectors will pay premiums for them.
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
Yes, that's a very nice relief chopmark. No need to be afraid of chops, as long as you are not aspiring for a "strictly uncirculated" registry set in those fancy plastic coffins. Once you get an eye for them, you will be able to discern nice and interesting chopped coins - such as this one - from the more "destroyed" ones.
And, who knows, you might even end up in the Chopmark Collectors Club one day!
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4883 Posts |
With several hundred date/mint/assay marking combinations, assembling a complete set of the "cap & rays" 8R's would be a daunting task, far more difficult than doing the same with, say, Morgan dollars, which can be accomplished by simply sinking enough money into the project. And making up that set of AU or better examples would be even more difficult, as there weren't bags of Republican 8R's sitting round in Mexican treasury vaults for decades - they were absolutely produced for the purpose of circulation, whether in Mexico or China, and even the antebellum U.S. Another obstacle would be how many, even when relatively unworn, seem to have been improperly cleaned. So I'm realistic and far from a condition snob on these, although I do strive to get the very best ones I can find. But since as far as grading standards in the hobby go, chopmarked coins are considered "mechanically damaged", I think I'll likely be a little choosy and look to acquire same generally at a discount vis a vis those that survived unchopped. Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
04/02/2014 2:57 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
684 Posts |
It would probably not be possible to assemble a complete set of Republic 8Rs. But as a starting point there are some must have references in this regard. Buy the book before the coin.
1. Resplandores by Dunigan and Parker
2. A Guide Book of Mexican Coins 6th edition by Buttrey and Hubbard
3. Ponterio's Auction Catalogues #139, 142, and 143 with PR. These catalogues feature the most complete collection of Mexico Republic 8Rs ever sold at auction.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
For what it's worth, I did a little research, and if you rotate the chop on the Phrygian cap 90 degrees clockwise, I believe you then have the Chinese character meaning "big"....
Colligo ergo sum
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
Lucky Cuss, you say:
"But since as far as grading standards in the hobby go, chopmarked coins are considered "mechanically damaged", I think I'll likely be a little choosy and look to acquire same generally at a discount vis a vis those that survived unchopped."
In my experience common, moderately circulated 8 reales with no major defects are likely to bring more if they have decent and interesting chops. The perspective has changed a bit, not all chopmarked coins are considered damaged, at least more and more collectors are thinking differently now...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
I don't doubt that what you're saying could in some cases be true, and I'm actually sympathetic with your point of view, although I've yet to see such premiums being commanded. I'd still maintain that the mainstream concensus continues to be that chopmarked coins are at best to be "details" annotated. A good example of this attitude can be found here: http://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading...-damage.aspx This lumps chopmarked coins in with those that have been damaged in many other less interesting ways. However, tastes in collecting are always evolving, so there may well be a "ground floor" to get in on these at this point in time. Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
04/03/2014 6:50 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
I think there's a grey area between "damaged" or not. Chops aren't the same in terms of "official" status as gov't struck counterstamps... but it's certainly not the same as an incidental gouge, a rim bang, some bored kid poking at the coin, etc. Whether the chops bring a premium (or reduction) in price does depend on how interesting the chop is... but also on how scarce a date/mint combo it is. Most chopped pieces are common later dates in "average circ" condition - $30 to maybe $40 pieces without the chops in that grade, so obviously they can't lose all that much starting from that price level... but certainly interesting chopped pieces can push to $50, $60 easily. However, certain chopped dates are very scarce (particularly certain 1860s-early 70s dates, where most of the mintage may actually have been exported to the Orient). In those cases, an unchopped coin will certainly command a premium (note that for some of these dates, most examples in the market may actually BE chopped). Quote:
you will be able to discern nice and interesting chopped coins - such as this one - from the more "destroyed" ones Although, as it happens, pieces that are massively chopped all over ALWAYS bring a premium over a normal piece with just a few scattered chops - usually double the price. Again, this is assuming a common date... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
I have to ask in what sort of venue are these premiums being seen? Auctions, shops, shows, online sales, or is it more or less across the board? As I said earlier, I've not observed this, but my sampling of the marketplace in this regard has up to now been pretty thin.
Colligo ergo sum
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
I've submitted the relief chop for translation, and I'm told that the character represents "yù" meaning in a general sense "plentiful" and more specifically "abundant in clothing and other goods", so it would seem to have something of a merchantile (or at least materialistic) connotation consistent with a coin marked for use in commercial trade.
Colligo ergo sum
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Personally I do not like the deep chops that bend the host coin. I have seen too many of these associated with forgeries. The big chops can be used to cover errors in the dies. The tiny chops if few in number never bother me.
But the relief chops in the outlined borders I do like. When hunting though boxes of common 8Rs I will always cherry pick those. I also like the long strings of characters.
Anyone considering paying a premium for chops need to look carefully at the chops. One in particular I see on an inordinate number of counterfeit coins and that is the swastika. China used a reversed swastika as a symbol of luck and there us a legitimate chop that three out of four legs of a swastika but which never has the 4th. But the Nazi form of the swastika I view with great suspicion.
One thing many people fail to realize is that test cuts were used in the US for identically the same reasons. The X scratched across the Cap or Eagle's breast is a test to see if the coin is solid silver. A wedge cut out of the edge or a small notch cut with a saw into an edge created metal filings for a destructive assay. These are tests in the same category as the Chinese chops. They become Cancellations when they are deepened or drill holes are added to stop circulation.
But regardless of how you view tests - I would prefer having a coin that was actually used as money than a coin stored 200 years in a vault that never actually circulated. If you are after perfection why not encourage the production of restrikes, replicas and even forgeries - they are pristine and sterile.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3229 Posts |
Nice coin; cool chop!  |
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Replies: 13 / Views: 1,842 |
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Posted 04/02/2014 07:55 am
