Morelos Sud Silvers Without Hand Edge Milling?

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Author	Replies: 6 / Views: 2,124
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 04/19/2014 5:48 pm I have still not analyzed PLAIN EDGE types but like the rumor mill goes these PE are considered fakes? Not sure ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/1813-MEXICO...em417f8cb20e Could use the Au/Pt fingerprint check ... being Insurgent a debased silver alloy IMO is not diagnostic as debased Ag issues may exist with silver Insurgent ... IMO ... we simply do not know ... we do see for example PE and regal edge 1811 Chihuahua pieces ... if someone preferably in the U.S. has a silver PE piece I would be interested in examining its alloy with SEM/EDS. John Lorenzo United States Report this Post to the Staff

MathieuMa Pillar of the Community France 1591 Posts	Posted 04/20/2014 4:35 pm I've seen that one, it's open for discussion on the spanish/south american counterfeit facebook group (but ... no answer so far). I was wondering wether it was OK or not, this type is known for being heavily counterfeited ... Here is mine, with plain edge (tell me if you want to check it out - but I'm in France) : Edited by MathieuMa 04/20/2014 4:36 pm Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 04/21/2014 08:14 am Matt - I think for me it will just take some time. As I discussed with Ralph Bopple and he seems to agree there is no B&W with Insurgent Coinage. It's like the 1811 Chihuahua Cast although Royalist - they seem to come with PE (rare) and regal edges. As I see more examples - as in the MNA this year (I am going in October) - maybe I can get a handle on these issues. It seems? a 45* hand engraved milled edge LOCKS it in as GOOD ISSUE - if PE - the jury is still out and no one has answers - on the PE the gold and platinum levels would be interesting to check with SEM/EDS ... I only own one in which I was luckly as its hand engraved 45* edges 8R - time will tell? If the PE show GOOD Pt/Au for the period - we can just default it as a step SKIPPED in the minting process like the 1811 Cast 8R Chihuahua PE's. Maybe? There will always be critics that they could have used melted 8Rs of the period to make these false PE SUDS? There is another way and that is to cut a PE in half and compare that to a milled edge piece also cut in half and look at their microstructures of the CENTRAL CORE of these coins. Thats a $1000-2000 investment ... I am actually starting a project like that with the St. Patrick's Coinage ... to see if the Vatican or Tower Mint is the minting location ... just a preliminary look ... this project is only costing me $300 in coins which NEED to be cut up ... to me its worth it ... but not here with these SUDS ... just buy milled edges ... its cheaper in the long run TODAY <VVBG>. John Lorenzo United States Edited by colonialjohn 04/21/2014 08:22 am Report this Post to the Staff
MathieuMa Pillar of the Community France 1591 Posts	Posted 04/21/2014 08:25 am It's indeed a very interesting area of study :) You know I have that one, I suppose Ralf has some as well. I'll tell you if I ever do some tests on that one - and I'll be pleased to check your investigations ! As for the Chihuahua plain edge ... you handled mine, which could be a copper plated core (with proper silver mix for the period). Of you tested a copper spot, which comes from badly mixed debased silver made from scrap metal :D I now have second one from 1812, with a collonial edge as expected. I like this type very much :D Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 04/21/2014 08:37 am For the Chihuahua 8Rs Cast - I think the debased issues will be good in the long term ... and the silver plated Sheffield as a contampoary - but Matt - its a WIN/WIN situation as most collectors would like to own a high level contemporary of the period. You saw that silver wash/cast host National Congress $1300 piece on Heritage recently ... so in many respects you just can't lose monetarily and difficult to prove if that piece was a regular issue or a later contemporary ... JPL Report this Post to the Staff
MathieuMa Pillar of the Community France 1591 Posts	Posted 04/21/2014 3:00 pm Actually, I don't mind about the price ;) :D I would have had an issue if it were a recently made Chinese crap - which is clearly not the case. Frankly, that sheffield is puzzling me since you discovered that. Why on earth would someone copy that temporary war-issued coin with a complicated process like that ? Considering that those were quickly melted afterward, as the various stamps were not enough to give confidence in those ... I really love investigating this period :D Report this Post to the Staff
NewSpainLearner Valued Member United States 55 Posts	Posted 04/29/2014 4:19 pm Matt- what's the actual name for the "spanish/south american counterfeit facebook group "? I'd like to check it out. Thanks ! Report this Post to the Staff
	Replies: 6 / Views: 2,124

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