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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,666 |
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1849 Posts |
I've had this coin catalogued as a fake for about 25 years now. It was one of my very first purchases of US coins, and it came from a local dealer who, I found out later, was not always straight in his dealings. Anyhow, long story short. This 'coin' weighs 2,63 grams whereas the nominal weight for the issues s 2,7 grams. The diameter is 19 mm, as it should be. In addition, the edge is reeded, as it should be. However, imo the appearance is not 'quite right', meaning it does not have the appearance one associates with worn old silver coinage. After many years I have taken it out of the drawer again for a fresher look. Is there any chance this is real after all? How does it look to you guys?     Edited by GERMANICVS
04/27/2014 11:33 am
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Pillar of the Community
Korea, Republic Of
1881 Posts |
I don't think it's real. Liberty's bust looks way off in position and detail compared to other 1800s. The bust's face looks bigger than any I've seen.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1804 Posts |
Germanicvs........... Quote:
Anyhow, long story short. This 'coin' weighs 2,63 grams whereas the nominal weight for the issues s 2,7 grams. The diameter is 19 mm, as it should be. The appearance is imo not 'quite right', meaning it does not have the appearance one associates with worn old silver coinage.
After many years I have taken it out of the drawer again for a fresher look.
Is there any chance this is real after all? How does it look to you guys? Very newbie here.... You say the diameter is good...... 2.5% silver wear shrinkage seems more than reasonable to me, on this coin As far as the ethics of the stated dealer ... some dealers (IMHO) are out and out crooks. Some are blissfully ignorant of what the buy AND sell. Avoid him, and others like him. For sure you will get lots of advice on CCF as to the counterfeit side, of the issues on this coin. and ... my advice (opinion) is worth what you paid for it. I, personally would re-cat your coin to REAL ... until proven COUNTERFEIT. As I said ... I am the very newbie here. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4416 Posts |
There's a chance, I'd guess. Yet, check out the following article: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewart...ed-bust-dimeYour DBD looks different from the example shown in the article. I'd take it to a show and consult with top tier grader and/or dealer specialist on this piece. Edited by ExoGuy
04/27/2014 12:41 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 Germany
1849 Posts |
Thank you all for your comments thus far.
ExoGuy, that is very interesting article you linked. Thank you! As you say, at first glance there are differences between this and the example shown in the article. I will examine it more attentively and compare.
Admittedly, this is a low grade piece (whether by wear or by design). Much of the detail is worn, and the ventilation is very weak if at all present.
I just do not know.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4416 Posts |
If your specimen is a counterfeit, Germanicvs, it's likely from the 1830-40's, I'd guess. Judging from the contemporary counterfeit half dollars that I've seen from that era, the workmanship on your specimen, if it is indeed a counterfeit, seems superior to my eye.
In time, perhaps another viewer here, one with a keen eye for this series, will provide us with more insight.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
It's an awfully worn example to be trying to make a definitive comparison, but I'm not seeing anything that sets off alarms. In fact, the "B" sitting a bit high relative to the preceding "I" is a good matching dignostic. As far as appearance goes, it bears mention that in times past, even into the 20th century, it wasn't unusual for specimens in a collection to be regularly polished.
You could always try to determine a specific gravity for it, as a contemporary counterfeit would almost certainly be off in this regard. But I actually like it, and wouldn't write it off as a forgery just yet.
Colligo ergo sum
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4416 Posts |
The specific gravity test suggestion is a good one. Bear in mind that silver was used in the making of some contemporary counterfeits. There was a period in the late 1830's, I read, that silver dropped below face value.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
723 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Korea, Republic Of
1881 Posts |
The more I look at it, I seem to get closer and closer to the "counterfeit" side.....but again, not an expert in this series.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1531 Posts |
The letters of LIBERTY seem.. fat. The ends of her hair don't seem correctly positioned with LIBERTY. I'm not an expert on the series, but it you're right, it doesn't have the "look".
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Diameter should be 19.8mm.
I'm just not comfortable with the details on the coin. The completely-missing left stars are tough to account for by wear, similarly the irregular shape of the present stars on both faces. My gut says it's a contemporary counterfeit, although that status gives it a certain cachet on its' own.
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Valued Member
United States
159 Posts |
This is absolutely a counterfeit. Look at the position of the date in relation to the bust compared to a real example. Also the surface of the coin is inconsistent with how these wear, especially on the reverse on the left wing. Those two among many other issues show that this coin is absolutely a fake.
I agree this could possibly be a contemporary counterfeit, although that would be out of my area of expertise.
Edited by coinsandcoins32
04/27/2014 5:02 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts |
Didn't GERMANICVS say the edge was reeded...
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Yes he did, and it should be reeded. This is a dime not a dollar.
Unfortunately it is a fake. This is a copy of an 1800 JR-2 dime and quoting from the dime book:
"Widely counterfeited. All seen are cast lightweights, have uneven strike, smaller diameter than 19.9 mm of genuine coins, horizontal die crack to left of crossbar of A1, and many raised pits on reverse."
This coin is underweight, is smaller in diameter, and the die crack running left from the crossbar is clearly visible. The genuine coins don't come with that die crack in any die stage.
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1849 Posts |
Once again, than you all for your input.
Conder, as usual, you got it just right. I should have started by checking the die varieties for 1800 DBDs.
Now I can put this back into the drawer with the comment 'Verified, cast Fake of JR-2'.
Thank you, all.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,666 |
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Posted 04/27/2014 10:38 am
