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1969 S RPM?

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Slamnbass's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2014  5:26 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Slamnbass to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers


1969-S-RPM?

1969-S-RPM?

1969-S-RPM?

1969-S-RPM?

1969-S-RPM?

1969-S-RPM?

1969-S-RPM?
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52Raymo's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2014  5:30 pm  Show Profile   Check 52Raymo's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 52Raymo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's always nice to include full shots of obverse/reverse. Maybe Coop or John will stop by.
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
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Collector-Corner's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2014  5:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collector-Corner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
unfortunately not...Its a machine doubled coin, thus if the date has significant MD, so will the mint mark. The only exception to the rule is if the MD in on top of the coin. SOMETIMES - not always, a coin with MD on top will not affect the Mintmark. If you look at direction of MD on date, you can see the MD on mintmark in same direction.
Edited by Collector-Corner
05/10/2014 5:33 pm
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 Posted 05/10/2014  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slamnbass to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Was just thinkn that too raymo-sorry,will do
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 Posted 05/10/2014  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slamnbass to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


1969-S-RPM?

1969-S-RPM?
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Slamnbass's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2014  5:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slamnbass to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok yes I see the same direction now and mabi that's why I was having trouble matching up any markers to this but man that doubling is so much more extreme on the MM...biggest MD I've ever seen-but MD can be that different on same coin that close I guess right? Another question...thought the MM's were punched seperately back then,no?
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Collector-Corner's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2014  5:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collector-Corner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That mint mark question applies to doubled dies only.
The die has the mint mark already on it when it strikes the coin. If the coin shows MD, it pretty much will show on the MM as well.
1969 was one of the biggest years on MD, probably followed closely by the 1970 and 1972 years.

For doubled dies - the coin is "cut wrong" and if it is, it could be a doubled die. Then one of the last process is to add a mint mark to the die before it starts to hammer coins.
So in respect to a doubled die - most - not all have a single mint mark that shouldn't show doubling on a DDO, unless the worker added more than one hit to the mint mark, making it an RPM, as well as a DDO.
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 Posted 05/10/2014  6:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slamnbass to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ahh thanks bud-and I just looked up and got done reading a little info( hate now knowing something) lol,I know where my misconception came from-mint marks were punched seperately into the die back then not the coin-so Machine Doubling would effect or could effect it all-now the mintmarks are all set into the die with the whole coin inlay correct? All as one? That's why there are no current rpm's
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 Posted 05/10/2014  7:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slamnbass to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These 2 pics I took off of coppercoins of the '69 S RPM-collector corner can you help me out I'm tryn to learn here-I understand the MD but I'm not to think in the future if the date has md then the MM must also be md correct? So to me these mm's don't really look much diff att all from my pics even tho they r clearer lol-can you tell me why coppercoins 2 pics are not MD?

1969-S-RPM?

1969-S-RPM?
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Slamnbass's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2014  7:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slamnbass to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And really the first pic looks so similar to the bottom curve of my S-I'm sure your right I really just wanna learn-and could there be RPM with MD?
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 Posted 05/10/2014  8:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collector-Corner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One thing to remember upfront about an RPM - Its struck onto the coin, and normally, it's not going to change in appearance for nothin'. It could get clogged I suppose, and eventually it will wear out, but for the most part what you see is what you get with the RPM "look" on a particular mint mark. If you look at that last Top "S" you posted, notice there is NO part of the lower "S" that is doubled.

If you look at that top RPM you posted, it shows a slight separation through the Middle "S" itself and then the end of the "S", the Ball part shows a "split serif" or like a Unhappy face smile through the middle part of the Ball, meaning that there are 2 of those Balls, one on top of another. Notice on the RPM about everything is about the same height.

On your coin, though it may look the same, the lower portion of your mint mark has been "scraped away" leaving damage. Your "S" is WAY thinner than normal, in places you can see the actual width it SHOULD be, but the Machine Doubling scraped most away. You DO NOT see that on CC RPM's you posted.

On the Coppercoins RPM's pics, of just the "S" there is no flat field Machine Doubling. You didn't show which RPM's those were from CC site, but go back and look at the coin that has those RPM's and see if the date and other devices have Machine Doubling. More than likely they do not.

Can a coin be an RPM and have Machine Doubling? Absolutely. The way that you tell that is through the die markers. You'd have to research the coin to figure it out, which would take some time. You'd have to compare the type of mint mark the RPM has, either the Ball type or other, and then look at the CC examples and see if yours has any of the markers.
Machine Doubling is like the shaking of the press machine, in the crudest example. Machie doubling will probably make it very difficult to recognize any markers that may be there.
Also, depending on the Die State/Stage, if CC doesn't show all three die states (EDS, MDS, LDS) then its tough to get a match as well. Markers will not always be there - since the strength of the strike can differ from coin to coin.

Markers play an important piece in trying to ID an RPM. Note that if you have an RPM, don't walways rely on the reverse of a coin for markers, especially if that reverse die is looking quite old. They replace dies over time, so, say you have an RPM obverse die, and they stop the press and change out that reverse die, and start it up again. It will continue to produce RPM's with the obverse die, but the reverse die was changed, and the markers would have changed as well.
Edited by Collector-Corner
05/10/2014 8:38 pm
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 Posted 05/10/2014  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collector-Corner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Give me a little bit and I will show you the differences in the 1969-S year. I have very limited quantities of 1969-S Rpm's but I am sure I have quite a selection of MD dates and Mint Marks. I should be able to get to this project tonight. I do digital forensics, network analysis and other items of interest at work, so when it comes to RPM's DDO's and DDR's show me the proof.

So, I will do my best to offer a few examples. If I can get to it here, I will provide a link to it on my site.
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 Posted 05/10/2014  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slamnbass to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow man! I really really appreciate your time in explaining that all to mean,helps a lot! Gets little frustrating at times but I'm trying to be patient lol-fairly new to errors and be really lookn hard through all my coins trying to learn and been reading tons-I like to totally master(which won't happen for long time I know that) but at least come close to having most of the knowledge I need-I do that with everything and have really fallen in love with this hobby lately-I've had a few pretty awesome finds this past year but the rpm's and double dies are really driving me nuts! Again thanks man
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 Posted 05/10/2014  10:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slamnbass to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And again that's why I couldn't find any of the markers for my coin and I did try all of the varieties so I am getting better at that-I definitely see no seperation on my 'S' now-question,is there always seperation of some kind somewhere on the device?
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coop's Avatar
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 Posted 05/10/2014  10:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The die is prepared in a separate step/ The die punch for the mint mark is a separate process. So to see the same doubling in the same direction is usually always Machine Doubling. Also the doubling is flat/shelf like and reduces the size of the devices. You example is an example of Machine Doubling that affects the date and mint mark. Not a hub issue or a punch issue. It is from a normal die that moved during the strike, damaging the devices and mint mark. Not a collectable.
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 Posted 05/10/2014  11:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slamnbass to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What year did the mintmark and all obverse devices start becoming a one punch step into the die?
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