The Emperor Has No Clothes - Coin Community Forum

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Author	Replies: 8 / Views: 1,961
tokensa1 Valued Member Australia 69 Posts	Posted 05/22/2014 03:48 am As an ex-pat African who left South Africa some time ago but who still collects coins from the southern region I found this disparity on a local South African auction quite astounding. On the South African web site (google) BidorBuy sellers are trying to sell the 1965 Churchill Crown for R2 (or about 15 cents in US $ terms while the old South African silver crowns with none of the fanfare of Winston (with just less than half an ounce of silver) cannot be bought there for under the equivalent of US$12 (or about R120) - a small premium on the current (manipulated) physical silver price. I have some questions that I think we should all be asking: ========================================== Why should we be paying interest on money that is "borrowed" and has no basis of value? (FIAT money - youtube this - has no value - it is "created" out of thin air by the banks today) While physical silver or gold continues to be manipulated by Wall Street and the US Federal Reserve for their own purposes the emerging China/Russia conglomerate with their satelite nations are currently buying physical precious metals (gold and silver) in huge volumes - source the well respected zerohedge Why are physical gold and silver prices so LOW when demand for them is so HIGH? What happened to the rule of supply and demand? The website Zerohedge have an interesting theory - with interest rates at virtually zero Wall Street banks are selling precious metals short on the COMEX in huge trades (often the entire annual production of gold or silver are sold short in a week). The answer is staring you in the face - it is because FIAT money is simply like the sea (ie a never ending plentiful supply for those in on the game) and the survival of Wall Street's debt-backed FIAT money depends on the precious metal prices (which have NO third party obligations of debt) being kept low. There is a problem with this and its not rocket science. What happens when the physical gold/silver runs out and the holder of that contract demands the real thing? Then I look back at my comparison of the two headed Churchill crown listed for sale at well below parity today with no buyers and summise that at least some people out there realise that the "Emperor" has no clothes Scott Edited by tokensa1 05/22/2014 04:05 am Report this Post to the Staff

Tom Goodheart Pillar of the Community United Kingdom 856 Posts	Posted 05/22/2014 04:06 am As far as I know the Churchill crown (along with all the others minted during the current reign of Elizabeth II) is not silver but Cupro-Nickel. Which would account for the price disparity if based just on PM value, no? Report this Post to the Staff
tokensa1 Valued Member Australia 69 Posts	Posted 05/22/2014 04:12 am Hello Tom I rest my case We pay interest on something that has no underlying value apart from pre-existing DEBT That is not an asset - that is the biggest fraud ever spun on humanity by the big bankers Go to Youtube and search on FIAT money .. dozens of fascinating videos on how Wall Street is messing with us Scott Edited by tokensa1 05/22/2014 04:13 am Report this Post to the Staff
Tom Goodheart Pillar of the Community United Kingdom 856 Posts	Posted 05/22/2014 05:02 am Well, I get the concept of what is effectively token money Scott. We've had that in the UK ever since the 1800s when silver was in too short supply to coin and copper coins of face value were too large for practical use. When all your pennies are crown size it made carrying loose change a problem! But then, pretty much everything bought sold or collected these days is priced according to sentiment/ perceived desirability rather than actual intrinsic worth. Just I thought you were asking about the difference in prices between SA crowns (which are presumably silver) and the Churchill, which isn't. Edited by Tom Goodheart 05/22/2014 05:03 am Report this Post to the Staff
HawkHybrid Valued Member United Kingdom 183 Posts	Posted 05/22/2014 05:13 am whilst I don't like the idea of the mass printing of money and the associated inflation, try buying stuff with your silver coin? it's much easier to trade with fiat money. people should not mix up what is true and what currently makes practical sense. I'm not saying you should not hold some precious metals just in case. HH Report this Post to the Staff
jolson Valued Member United States 218 Posts	Posted 05/22/2014 06:22 am In an effort to stir the pot.... Does it not stand to reason that the only reason ANYTHING has ANY value is because we humans prescribe value to it. Why is gold worth so much? Because us humans as a collective have decided it so. If you were to imagine that nobody was interested in gold or history evolved in a way that paid no attention to gold then copper could theoretically be worth more than gold. There is no law of nature that prescribes value to anything; it is all a social creation no matter if we are talking about green backs or gold bullion. Report this Post to the Staff
Fuzzy317 Moderator United States 14463 Posts	Posted 05/22/2014 06:36 am I saw a story on periodicvideos.com that at one time, Aluminum (aka Aluminium) was considered more valuable than gold. Report this Post to the Staff
HawkHybrid Valued Member United Kingdom 183 Posts	Posted 05/22/2014 1:26 pm an important fact about gold is that it changes little with time. very important in an item that you want to hold value through wars. greenbacks, not so good after 100+ yrs of circulation. HH Report this Post to the Staff
tokensa1 Valued Member Australia 69 Posts	Posted 05/24/2014 02:46 am In reply to Jolson who says: In an effort to stir the pot.... Does it not stand to reason that the only reason ANYTHING has ANY value is because we humans prescribe value to it. Why is gold worth so much? Because us humans as a collective have decided it so. If you were to imagine that nobody was interested in gold or history evolved in a way that paid no attention to gold then copper could theoretically be worth more than gold. There is no law of nature that prescribes value to anything; it is all a social creation no matter if we are talking about green backs or gold bullion. ----- My response: Gold and silver are precious metals and have been MONEY for thousands of years. The very fact that there is a limited supply of the physical is the reason the banks (from the Central Banks down) "manufactured" the fractional banking system. This new system is the basis of FIAT money. As another respondent here noted gold never tarnishes and retains its pure form over thousands of years while FIAT money is literally a creation by an entry in the bank's books. If you are talking about value you can see the great divide between the two sources of "money". If anyone is interested in this subject may I recommend the book "The Money Bubble" recently published - the authors are James Turk and John Rubino Finally the BRIC countries are buying up thousands of tons of gold each year while the (greed-based) west is literally selling off the farm. I know which quarter I would rather be in. Kind regards Scott Edited by tokensa1 05/24/2014 02:50 am Report this Post to the Staff
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