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Replies: 36 / Views: 7,178 |
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Pillar of the Community
917 Posts |
Quote: It is of little benefit to counterfeiters to know where the slabs are made. if they really needed to know then stacking out the PCGS facility would give them that information. Yes it is of HUGE benefit. The same type of employee that would leak a trade secret might also steal and sell slabs from the inside. Or heck even a mold or the specs for one. If located in a country like China it would be even more of a realistic situation. They counterfeit anything you can think of, and have had problems with what I just described. Also "staking out" PCGS, or rummaging in their trash is a great way to get trespassed and possibly arrested. Quote: It is no different to any consumer who buys a brand name product and checking that it is made in countries like Switzerland, Germany, Sweden or the US that have a reputation for quality control and not China or Bangladesh. Other numi product makers put the country of origin on their products. Has Saflips lost market share because they let their customers know that their product is made in Ohio and even give their address? Yes it is. There is a huge difference between buying flips (a product) and having a coin graded (a service). When you do business with a TGP you are not purchasing slabs from them, you are purchasing an opinion in a tamper proof case to protect their reputation. As for checking where something was made to make sure you get it from a country with a higher reputation for quality control, its the company that sets the quality standards not the country of origin. Most companies these days if they don't have their products made 100% in china, source a large percentage of parts from china and assemble elsewhere. Examples of brand name products that "have a reputation for quality control" that are made in china: Armani Tommy Hilfiger J. Crew (Everything is made in China except for some of their scarves (India) and their shoes are made in Italy) Levi's Louis Vuitton (assembled in China finished in France. Can still be labeled "Made in France") Apple (Made in China by Foxconn) All those companies also have problems with counterfeiting, or stolen property directly from the factory and being sold. Saflips might not be losing money, but they aren't exactly making something that has a large demand for counterfeits.
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Pillar of the Community
 Australia
852 Posts |
Lincoln, the laws of trespass don't apply when a bin is off the premises (paparazzi use this fact to snoop in stars bins) . Also even if they have the dumpster picked up from in the premises the waste (unless it goes to a secure document disposal firm) goes to a general recycling plant where hundreds of people may see it. Any serious counterfeiter can do the necessary investigation to find out where the slabs are made. The specifications of the slabs are public knowledge once they ship the first slabbed coins.As PCGS owns the moulds/dies they already have a strong protection against them being misused. I can find hundreds of brands that outsource to China and just as many who don't.If I purchase a piece of advanced technology (electronics for example) the packaging will specify country of origin. And if for example they were to manufacture the slabs in China that fact would be known to the counterfeiters. So why should counterfeiters have that knowledge but not the paying customer? Que Bono applies to the secrecy.If PCGS was so paranoid about secrecy then why did they advertise the specific technology that they licenced from Dupont for the labels? That is a perfect example of knowing who supplies what does not benefit the counterfeiters.
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Pillar of the Community
917 Posts |
Most businesses dumpsters here are on private property so it would be trespassing. Quote: Any serious counterfeiter can do the necessary investigation to find out where the slabs are made. If thats the case then so can you. Quote: The specifications of the slabs are public knowledge once they ship the first slabbed coins. The dimensions maybe but the composition of the plastic is not. Quote: As PCGS owns the moulds/dies they already have a strong protection against them being misused. I don't see how ownership would equate to "strong protection against them being misused" as they are most likely not in physical possession of PCGS. Quote: If I purchase a piece of advanced technology (electronics for example) the packaging will specify country of origin. I addressed this in my previous post. You are no purchasing slabs from PCGS. PCGS does not manufacture anything. If they wanted "Made in China/USA" on the slab they would have it there. They dictate the specifications to the manufacturer. Quote: And if for example they were to manufacture the slabs in China that fact would be known to the counterfeiters. I don't see how that would be automatically known to counterfeiters. Quote: So why should counterfeiters have that knowledge but not the paying customer? A counterfeiter is driven by monetary gain, a customer is not. Plus it doesn't matter to the end user. They are purchasing a service from PCGS. That would be like someone obsessing over where, and who makes cups for McDonalds... I mean who really cares? Quote: If PCGS was so paranoid about secrecy then why did they advertise the specific technology that they licenced from Dupont for the labels? Because DuPont is a major corporation. They make things like nomex, kevlar, tyvek, and teflon. Telling people you have security measures developed by DuPont, a multibillion dollar company is a big thing.
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Pillar of the Community
Sweden
729 Posts |
Quote: But nobody has seen/delivered cartons of unused slabs (or shipping labels for same)going to the slabbing facilities? I doubt an external delivery service delivers straight to the slabbing facility. That is probably located on a secret location, since THAT would be a nice place to rob.
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Valued Member
Australia
315 Posts |
It is more likely that PCGS owns their own plant in china. I have enquired (via china) regarding the price to making a slab and it is incredibly expensive. The making of each coin size will set you back a hefty $7K. 30 coin sizes = $210K. That's just crazy
Edited by coinsaus 07/24/2014 04:44 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Australia
852 Posts |
Lincoln. I'm in Australia and can easily go stake out the RAM (getting as far as the US and visiting shows like FUN is on my bucket list). Unlike a counterfeiting organisation I cannot recoup the expenses by engaging in shady practices. Finding the location is the easy part, getting access to the dies/moulds and the precise methodology of making the slab is the challenge (and then there is the equal challenge of the hologram and other security measures). It is an exaggeration to say most dumpsters are on private property, but I will concede that for the PCGS facility it will be and there will be locked gates. For same day certification at shows they would have to have removed all identification as the dumpsters are open to the curious. If a product is made in China then there are multiple levels of officialdom involved and therefore multiple levels of corrupt officials to pass on the information. Of course the exact composition of the plastic is known once the slabs are released. It is a straight forward thing to analyse the composition of a plastic. It is the methodology of making it that is hard to reverse engineer and knowing where the slabs are made won't change that. My understanding is that the slabs are not a single uniform plastic but a composite with features such as anti scratch surfaces. Just like baking a cake you might have the full list of ingredients but you have to get a dozen steps right or you end up with a slumped mess instead of the perfect product. You are correct that PCGS does not manufacture anything, but by owning the dies/moulds then they also probably own the programming used to make said dies/moulds. Without access to that information (which the staff at the manufacturer wouldn't have)the best a counterfeiter can do is make a second generation copy (if they can get access to the manufacturers plant). That is no better than a photocopy of the original (although it would still be better than copying off a slab as quality wise that is like a photocopy of a photocopy). The grading itself is only half the service (if that, there is also services like registry sets, Trueview and the certification registration), slabbing is the other half and the main purpose of slabbing is to protect the coins long term. Many consumers do care where their product comes from and seek out details of origin. Ask any discerning motorist if they would choose a Mercedes made in Germany over one made in their plants in Egypt or Brazil. Or a Toyota made in Japan over a Toyota made in China. As a consumer of coin storage products I pay multiples of the price of Chinese rubbish for ostensibly an equivalent product to ensure that I get quality and long term peace of mind. If it is a big thing to boast that Dupont developed the security labels wouldn't you also boast about the slab manufacturers long history of making superior products for prestige brands (or does the manufacturer have a bad reputation?). I use PCGS even though I know they are more expensive. I have no intention of selling my collection and I would like to know that the slabs are archival grade so I can pass the collection on (hopefully) after a few more decades.
Edited by nealeffendi 07/24/2014 04:53 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Australia
852 Posts |
I just saw Coinaus post that it is likely that PCGS owns their own plant in China. NO THEY DON'T. A SEC filing is a legal document with severe penalties for the executives who sign off on a false or misleading filing. Read the darn SEC filing and you will find that PCGS uses 2 outside manufacturers to make their slabs. The SEC filing also lists the various properties of the company, including leased property. No mention of a Chinese manufacturing plant. The only non US property is listed as small offices in Paris, HK and Shanghai. BTW, why were you getting quotes for the tools to make slabs? Do you have an interest in a TPG like APCGS?
Edited by nealeffendi 07/24/2014 05:41 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote: You are correct that PCGS does not manufacture anything, but by owning the dies/moulds then they also probably own the programming used to make said dies/moulds. Without access to that information (which the staff at the manufacturer wouldn't have)the best a counterfeiter can do is make a second generation copy (if they can get access to the manufacturers plant). That is no better than a photocopy of the original (although it would still be better than copying off a slab as quality wise that is like a photocopy of a photocopy). Have you seen the differnt generations of the fake slabs? The first ones were easy to spot, even easier to identify if you had them in hand. But they have been getting better and better. The slabs shells themselves are now VERY good. And you might be surprised what the injection molding plants would know about how the molds are manufactured. Most if not all of them have their own mold shops and they have a great deal of experience in the making of these molds. I would be very surprised if their their mold makers could not duplicate the PCGS molds. Maybe not on a first attempt but after a couple of tiem they would get it right (which just so happens to be what has happened with the fake shells.) Quote: The making of each coin size will set you back a hefty $7K. 30 coin sizes = $210K. That's just crazy Sounds about right. Prices have come down, used to be around $10K per mold. This is why the fly by night grading services didn't proliferate until Coin World began marketing their own shells and then when generic shells became available. The basement slabbers couldn't afford to have their own shells made.
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Pillar of the Community
 Australia
852 Posts |
Condor, a few years ago I worked on the production lines in 7 different plastics factories (all were through an agency, my job was as a temp to cover for no shows,holiday leave etc) so I got to deal with producing about a hundred different products in a range of plastics. Not one of those factories made their own moulds, it takes an engineering workshop that specializes in making moulds to make them. These were all reasonable sized plants running 3 shifts and having skilled tradies to service the machines. I'm sure the counterfeiters can make a reasonable facsimile of the genuine product, but getting the laminar structure right is not easy and those fakes will perform differently if a lab tests them. I realise that doesn't help the slabbed coin buyer as they have neither the testing facility nor the will to run destructive tests on suspicious slabs. IIRC it is the improving quality of the fake slabs that has pushed PCGS to increase the security via the label/hologram.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3692 Posts |
Slabs is soilent green, that's why they don't tell you.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4594 Posts |
Part of the problem is with six axis CNC machines it is now a lot easier to make molds. I've seen some interesting videos from KickStarter projects as they walk you through the process of making their housing.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Pillar of the Community
 Australia
852 Posts |
I'll try and have a look at the Kickstarter videos. Might get a better understanding of what is now possible with counterfeit moulds.
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Valued Member
United States
374 Posts |
With the new hologram labels, PCGS may have ceded that they cannot even tell the difference between their own and counterfeit slabs anymore.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9796 Posts |
Can't tell you who makes them but I can give you patent info on the holder itself, patented by Keith Love, founder of ICG and ex CEO (retired now) and has since sold the business to go into injection mold projects. http://patents.justia.com/patent/6029807Here is a patent that is for a device to allow various non compatible holders to mate together for stacking, in it, it lists many of the other slab patents. http://www.google.com/patents/US20120189384From the above list I'm sure you can dig deeper, then use cross reference information to figure out at the least how is capable of making them in the USA, the volume must be at least 100K units per month and probably a lot more.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4594 Posts |
Sorry, not even close. The ICG patent's only unique feature is their little bow in which is a "stress contour". See claims 1, 10 and 18 and note that the "stress contour" is part of every single claim.
You have to chase back through the 20 cited patents and the 15 others those cite to get the full picture.
Burdick's 1964 patent (looks a lot like a cointain) cites Buranelli's 1941 patent which claims
"This invention relates to display holders for coins and medals, and my improvement is directed to a board composed of suitable material that is provided with holes adapted to containingly receive coins or medals for the exposure of both their obverse and reverse faces."
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Replies: 36 / Views: 7,178 |