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1879 US $ 5 Gold-Counterfeit Analysis...

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mdpmedia's Avatar
United States
3546 Posts
 Posted 07/26/2014  4:02 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello,

Yesterday, I ran into this seemingly nice $ 5 gold piece owned by a lady whose husband recently died.

The woman knew nothing about coins and just wanted to get some money for all of her coins since this was in a yard sale environment...

Anyhow, being the always-skeptical buyer I went through the only tests that I thought I could perform on-site with the rudimentary tools routinely carried in my car's trunk.

The first test result that seemed to be a bit odd was that the weight of this coin measured on a carefully-calibrated scale was 8.29 grams instead of the 8.24 grams stated on the CCF coin facts page:

http://www.coincommunity.com/us_gol...lf_eagle.asp

I seemed to recall that the US Mint never would never allow any acceptable tolerances over or above the exact 8.24 grams weight in this case: a fact whose origin I could not substantiate at the time.

1) Did the US Mint ever allow tolerance ranges on the weigh of gold coins?

Then I double-checked the Red Book and found the weight listed as 8.359 grams as oppose to 8.29 grams.

2) Although seemingly negligent why does a difference of 0.069 gram exist here?

I already know that based upon the fact that 24k gold is 100% pure, 18 k gold equates to 75% pure gold: 18k/24K.

Therefore, using the 1879 $5 gold piece written metal composition of 90% amount, found in both of the above sources, and working backwards should not the equivalent karat designation be calculated as:

(24k x 90%)/100% = 21.6 k(karat)?

3) Is this calculation method valid?

I then proceeded to test this gold coin by first scraping the exterior reeded-rim down using a small file.

Then I applied a drop of 22.0k test acid at this ground-down area. Incidentally, I routinely carry in my trunk (while maintaining a 78 degree or below temperature) all of my acids to preserve the potency of the acids to avoid arriving at erroneous results...

I became confused and hesitated with the purchase of this coin because the drop of initially clear 22k acid (before touching this filed-down area) immediately turned into a dark-yellow-tinted liquid drop after touching the coin's surface and subsequently stained a sheet of white paper with this same dark-yellow-tinted color.

My final questions are:

4) Assuming that my above calculations are accurate does this coin appear a true 1879 90% US $5 gold coin or not?

5) If this coin is indeed 21.6 karats, would a 22k test acid customarily dissolve the gold enough to produce the dark-yellow-tinted color being that it is rated as only 0.4 k stronger than the 21.6 k AU (gold) composition of the coin etc.?

6) Hypothetically, should an exact 21.6k-rated acid, only 0.4k weaker than the first 22k acid, also turn into a similar dark-yellow-tinted color liquid after coming in contact with this same coin?

In summary, please answer the above six (6) questions and comment on the authenticity of this 1879 P gold Coronet Head $ 5 Half Eagle and whether or not I should have bought it after all.

Thanks,
mdpmedia
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gotboostedvr6's Avatar
United States
261 Posts
 Posted 07/26/2014  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gotboostedvr6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All these tests and no measurement of diameter and thickness or detailed pictures?

Filed the edge. .. really?

Do you have an acid block? The acid test should really be done on one of those .
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johnny54321's Avatar
United States
4849 Posts
 Posted 07/26/2014  10:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add johnny54321 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
how much wear was on the coin? that could account for some of the discrepancy. This is a common date half eagle, unless the grade was extremely high or I saw some other extremely suspicious anomalies with the coin...I wouldn't have worried about it too much.
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mdpmedia's Avatar
United States
3546 Posts
 Posted 07/27/2014  12:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
diameter and thickness or detailed pictures?


My backup pill battery used for my battery-operated LED calipers died along with my primary battery already installed in this device.

Plus I tested this coin outside on someone's unlit driveway at 10 PM in the evening.

My camera's flash and the LEDs on my hand-held loop would have respectively either whitened out and/or produced insufficient lighting in that environment.

The coin graded out at about an XF-45 having just one very noticeable scratch on the obverse keeping it from an AU-50.


Quote:
an acid block? The acid test should really be done on one of those


The end result would have been virtually identical using either method with the one I used allowing me to scrape a bit more metal off from the uppermost layer as well as to let the acid leech up into the spacing between the reeds on the circumference.

Acid did not touch either the obverse or reverse sides.
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zxcccxz's Avatar
Canada
5417 Posts
 Posted 07/27/2014  12:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zxcccxz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, I'm going to sound a bit rude here, but how did you think that it was a good idea to file the rim of a coin which may have been authentic!!?
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mdpmedia's Avatar
United States
3546 Posts
 Posted 07/27/2014  12:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
good idea to file the rim of a coin which may have been authentic!!?


I should have better clarified the coarseness of this file which is similar to a very fine 'metal' nail file and not a traditional heavy duty construction-type file.

The resulting surface of the circumference of the coin would have been almost identical no matter what method was utilized: very roughly rounding it off approximately possibly 100 microns difference between the two.
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zxcccxz's Avatar
Canada
5417 Posts
 Posted 07/27/2014  12:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zxcccxz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I should have better clarified the coarseness of this file which is similar to a very fine 'metal' nail file and not a traditional heavy duty construction-type file.

The resulting surface of the circumference of the coin would have been almost identical no matter what method was utilized: very roughly rounding it off approximately possibly 100 microns difference between the two.


Either way, even if it was only very slightly visible this coin would get a Details grade at a TPG.

Can't attest to the authenticity of the coin, the weight is very close so even if it was a counterfeit it may have been struck with real gold. An XF-45 would've been close to the striking standard.
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westernsky's Avatar
United States
7618 Posts
 Posted 07/27/2014  02:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you are worried about the coin being counterfeit then you need to low ball your offer accordingly. Most gold coin counterfeits are made with real gold and are always going to be worth their gold value. Offering a little bit back of melt is the way to go. I rarely see counterfeit $5 Libs. Counterfeit 2 1/2 & 5 Indians are way more common. We bought questionable gold coins as "jewelry pieces" and paid slightly back of their melt value. As far as I know we never got burned unless the price of gold tanked on us.

Doing destructive testing with a file on a ****potentially**** collectible coin in someone's front yard is not ethical. Imagine bringing out a file at a coin show or coin shop and scraping the edge of a coin in a dealer's showcase because "you just wanted to check to see if it was real or not!" You'd be lucky to walk out of the show and would probably be thrown out of a shop.

At a yard sale you base your decision on what you see in front of you and make a fair offer accordingly. After all, the lady just wanted "some money" for her coins. Maybe she was testing you to see what you offered and if she felt comfortable she would have sold you the rest of the stuff she still had in the house.
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jay799's Avatar
United States
156 Posts
 Posted 07/27/2014  11:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jay799 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I dont know much about gold coins, but if it was a silver coin the tolerance would not have bothered me as it isn't even .1 gram.

I do know that I wouldn't take a file to any coin, unless it was already badly damaged.
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 07/28/2014  09:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I show a weight of 8.359 gtams with a mint tolerance of +/- .016 grams For a new coin it would be out of tolerance but I' not sure the weight difference would be unusual for an XF.
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