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Dealers Close Down In Minnesota

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Arkie's Avatar
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 Posted 08/13/2014  08:15 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Arkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers

By Pat Heller
August 11, 2014


At last week's American Numismatic Association World's Fair of Money in Rosemont, Ill., I was able to gather many more details on the evolution of the Minnesota coin dealer registration law that became effective July 1.

Apparently, Minnesota was the base of operations for several marketers of different kinds of collectibles at prices that were much higher than those quoted by other dealers. Some of the selling practices by these companies were close to or exceeded the limits of what was legal. Some of these marketers sold numismatic products. In order to obtain products to sell, these numismatic marketers purchased inventory from other coin dealers. Some coin dealers who provided the inventory were aware of the marketing practices of these firms.

A reporter for the Minneapolis Star Tribune compiled an investigative report on some of these marketers, but apparently focused only on the ones selling numismatic products. During the course of the investigation, coin dealers across the country were interviewed. At the ANA show, multiple dealers who were interviewed told me that the reporter's attitude was that "coin dealer" and "crook" were one and the same, that the reporter was interested only in attacking all marketing of numismatic items, and that none of the information provided in interviews that defended legitimate industry practices were included in the published newspaper stories.

The published articles, therefore, attacked the entire numismatic industry. This information sparked the Minnesota attorney general to do something. That turned out to be the recently effected coin dealer registration law.

Repeated surveys in Minnesota report a high approval for this new law, with almost none of the public aware of the deceptions used to create the impetus for the law to be enacted.

In establishing this law, the Minnesota government has not addressed the overall problem of aggressive marketers selling a variety of non-numismatic collectibles at non-competitive prices. Further, it is hard to see how a single coin dealer who barely makes $5,000 of retail sales annually of covered coins containing gold or silver could be operating a huge nationwide deceptive marketing program. Yet, it is these dealers who are suffering most under the new law. Marketers selling at high prices relative to the wholesale market can much more easily afford 1) the cost of all the background checks, 2) bonding of staffs, and 3) the extra paperwork required to register with the Minnesota Department of Commerce and then sell coins to Minnesota retail customers.

Preliminary indications are that a high percentage of Minnesota coin dealers, perhaps as much as half of them, are closing their operations. One dealer predicted that the aggressive tactics used to hassle dealers attending coin shows in Minnesota will destroy all but two shows across the state. Since several of the shows that will cease provide financial support to local coin clubs, there is a good chance that several of these clubs will disappear.

As of the middle of last week, only five non-Minnesota coin dealers had registered with the Minnesota Department of Commerce to sell to retail customers in that state. I heard multiple complaints at the ANA that Minnesota collectors were turned away from doing business with many dealers, simply because of the state where they live.

To summarize, the new law does little to address the problem of Minnesota-based marketers of high-priced (relative to what most dealer charge) collectibles. It does serious harm to Minnesota and non-Minnesota dealers who are not engaged in the objectionable marketing practices. It is already reducing the options for Minnesota collectors to visit local coin shops, coin shows and to deal with out-of-state dealers. Ultimately, it is the general public in Minnesota that will suffer from the impact of the newly effective coin dealer law in that state.

Perhaps the scariest news is that legislators in another state, one of the most populous in the country, are already considering the adoption of this Minnesota law in that state. To protect the identity of my source, I will not identify this state. Unfortunately, there is a risk that, if the Minnesota law continues in its current form, this could be a precedent for similar laws in other states.
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 08/15/2014  10:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add retiredkper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It may be time for Minn. dealers to set up out of state mailing addresses.
Bedrock of the Community
Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 08/15/2014  11:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Minn law requires out of state dealers to register and post bonds as well if they buy or sell with Minn residents. That isn't legal, but the law mandates it.
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 Posted 08/15/2014  2:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tryna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Home Shopping Network is in Florida... I hope that is not the state looking to adopt this kind of law, but knowing the states record I have little hope.
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 Posted 08/15/2014  6:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1893S to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's really bad for us here in MN. We are not even sure how to interpret the law. Collectors don't even know if they have to get the license if they buy and sell over $5,000 a year. We've also been informed that undercover officials from the STATE will be at coin shows to watch both dealers and collectors transacting business. Very scary to say the least! I'll tell you, we're sending out an SOS for any help from the Numismatic Community. Don't let this happen in your state. Be proactive......Many, many dealers from other states will have nothing to do with us. Many dealers from MN have quit selling for now, some for good.....The funny thing is, MN dealers CAN sell to consumers in other states without having to get the license. Go figure? It's a lose-lose situation for both collectors and dealers now.
Edited by 1893S
08/15/2014 6:59 pm
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United Kingdom
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 Posted 08/15/2014  6:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DaytR to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply





Quote:
Perhaps the scariest news is that legislators in another state, one of the most populous in the country, are already considering the adoption of this Minnesota law in that state


Which state is that ?
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 08/15/2014  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1893S to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you read Arkie's post, he said he COULD NOT and WILL NOT reveal the State.
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Arkie's Avatar
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 Posted 08/16/2014  09:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Arkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Arkie's post is an article from Numismatic News. I do not know the state about which Pat Heller is speaking.
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atticguy's Avatar
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 Posted 08/16/2014  11:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add atticguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've read everything posted, so far, but I still don't understand what is troubling everyone so much. If anyone can list, in English, what the new rules/laws are it would be appreciated.
From what I've read so far, this does NOT affect coin collectors. It seems to me it only legitimizes businesses and taxes them like other companies.
If I have it figured wrong, please report what is really going on.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 08/16/2014  12:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1893S to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Google MN Coin Legislation or such. You can find the actual reading of the legislation. The problem is most dealers are small timers and really not businesses. The majority of dealers are older and have been trading coins for many years and don't want government in their collecting and trading affairs the way the State of MN wants to be. They already have to pay taxes on all sales in MN and have for many years unlike many other states that DO NOT require state sales tax to be paid for numismatic coins. The problem is the new legislation, which as I stated can be found with a google search. Make sure you go to the actual State of MN website.....AND, as I stated in my above post and is also written by Pat Heller in Arkies post, MOST dealers in other states ARE NOT and WILL NOT comply with the new MN law and WILL NOT sell to a known MN customer...period. As was stated in Pat Hellers article, we are being shunned by most if not all dealers other than the small minority left here in MN.
Edited by 1893S
08/16/2014 12:55 pm
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BadThad's Avatar
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 Posted 08/16/2014  1:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another fine example of big government over-reach. This is going to help kill coin collecting.
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vermontensium's Avatar
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 Posted 08/16/2014  6:07 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Perhaps the scariest news is that legislators in another state, one of the most populous in the country, are already considering the adoption of this Minnesota law in that state. To protect the identity of my source, I will not identify this state


Gee, I'll take one guess, California.

Huge leftist State that will embrace it with open arms.
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jimbucks's Avatar
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 Posted 08/16/2014  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My guess it is New York
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 Posted 08/16/2014  7:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DaytR to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
New York did also cross my mind, but I now think maybe Illinois ...
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 Posted 08/16/2014  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chasingtailbar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PA/Jerz (where most of my in-person buying goes on) won't be on that list, I'm sure. PA is way too conservative (I still can't buy beer unless I go to a specific beer store, or a bar) and NJ is way too corrupt. My money is on FL, CA or NY.

As a side note, I will still sell to MN residents, but I will track my transactions and stop at $4k.
Edited by chasingtailbar
08/16/2014 7:52 pm
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