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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,398 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3233 Posts |
This is a story about a non-US coin but since so many of you know me on the U.S. boards I thought it might be better to place it here. I have a small Judaea coin collection, including most of the Judaea rulers going back to around 135 BCE up until the destruction of Jerusalem of around 70 ACE or so. One piece that I wanted to get my hands on was a Judaea Capta (Judaea Defeated, a coin commemorating the defeat of the Jews by the Romans). These can be a bit pricey. I found one that had amazing detail in a reputable auction. It was a silver Denarius from Vespasian and it is very tough to find with any bit of decent detail. This one looked fantastic and I put a reasonable bid on it. Well, I won it. Actually, I paid a dealer agent to buy it for me. It's a long story, but I have this deal with him and I'm okay with it. I also won another coin (another Judaean coin, a Pontius Pilate piece that was also nicely detailed) that I kept. I paid my dealer agent/friend $30 to cover shipping, his expenses, and some extra money for him for a commission. When I got the coin, I noticed right away that it had a scratch across the reverse at the top. Heck, it's 2000 years old...I can deal with that. I also, noticed strong vertical marks under 5X on the coin, especially in the obverse field in front of the face. I thought, okay...I guess this was necessary to remove whatever contaminants were on the coin. I almost let it go, but luckily I didn't. I met with J.P. Martin from ICG a couple of days later. For those that don't know who he is, he's one of the leading counterfeit experts in the country and very, very bright when it comes to coins, problems, and grading. In a few seconds he determined that the coin was "tooled". Now, for ancient coins, tooled typically means that the details were manipulated. But he was referring to all the metal that got "moved" on both sides do to not-so-nice of a cleaning job. He said that the type of cleaning was not market acceptable and would never slab. I was seriously bummed. I called the selling dealer and he gave me a refund of what I won the coin for and I ate the return postage and the $30 I already paid my friend. I won't ask for any of that back. It's not his fault that I didn't decide to keep the coin. If this was a U.S. coin, I would have returned it in an instant. I guess, for ancients, there's definitely a threshold that can't be crossed for those coins as well. The photos below won't really show you any of the problems. Believe it or not, these photos are actually much better than the auction ones. You see how easy it is to get "stuck" with a coin from a "good" photo? I hope my $36 lesson stretches to help at least one of you out. Be careful. If this was your coin, you bet your bottom dollar it would be hard to resell because anyone seeing this in hand would notice the problems. You'll also notice something else more obvious...the indentation in the cheek. J.P. said that it didn't help the coin's value but that it really didn't make it a problem coin. He said it was likely that the planchet flaked off. I think it might have been struck that way as it is no "after mint" damage.   Edited by Prethen
08/25/2007 10:33 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1283 Posts |
I'm sorry you got disappointed. Not to marginalize it or anything, but many people have made much more expensive bum buys.
On a side not, do you still have it? I'm willing to buy it off of you for whatever you feel fair market value is. I don't collect ancients, but I would love to own something that old.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
3233 Posts |
I already returned it. But, thanks for asking about it. It will be hard to find another one with great detail and not an astoundingly high price.
This coin cost me $310 but I got the original auction price for $280 back from the dealer. So I lost the money and don't have the coin. That's what sucks about this lesson. It wasn't worth it for me to keep it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1283 Posts |
Prethen, since you seem to know about the ancient coin market.. let me ask you a question. For now I'm not really trying to break into the ancient coin market. But I would really like to have just one, really old, interesting piece.
Is there a coin you would recommend that is interesting historically, aesthetically pleasing and affordable in decent grades?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2703 Posts |
Hi Prethen This is a Vespasian denarius, not Tiberius. The obverse legend reads IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG. I have some doubts regarding its autheticity as well, since the portrait doesn't look quite right to me (Vespasian is portrayed with a very thick neck and large head) and the metal does not look quite right, although I cannot be sure from the scan. My initial impression is that it is a 19th century copy. Here is one on vcoins with a typical portrait http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/yorkc...2507&large=0Vespasian is considered by many Jews to be the Hitler of the ancient world, since he killed thousands of Jews and destroyed many towns to regain control over Judaea. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
597 Posts |
If you are interested in ancients have a look at the Vcoins.com site sometime, there are quite a few very reputable dealers represented there. I myself have a darkside interest in coins of ancient Syracuse some of which I have here: http://www.geocities.com/scottishmo...yracuse.htmlBut I also collect the coinage from what is now Ukraine, Black Sea coins. Several of these pieces have come from Vcoins.com dealers. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3233 Posts |
T360 - Yep...duh...that's actually what I meant to say...Vespasian (corrected in original post). The other piece I bought was a Tiberius coin. I see what you mean about the difference in the designs. But, how can you be sure that different dies weren't used with a slightly different look? Is there some sort of other "test" I could have used for authenticity? The dealer I got this from is a reputable ancients dealer.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3233 Posts |
Ancients are a huge playing field. There's a ton to learn. I picked to go after a small segment but have some other Roman and Greek pieces because I had the opportunity to get them at decent prices. For between $20-$40 you can probably pick up a nice Roman piece that's about 1700 years old. This is an area that I'm quite novice at and it appears there are other people responding on this thread that are much more knowledgeable.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Prethen: Not to knock you but if you would have just appreciated the coin, not examined it with such great magnification and went looking for someone to authenticate it, you would now be sitting there happily the owner of a nice looking coin. Fake, beat up, counterfeit or whatever, you would have been happy with what you had. True for many people the amount you spent is high, but the amount you lost is also nothing to laugh at. You would probably be amazed at how many people are in possesion of fakes and will never know it. They bought it on ebay or the likes, are happy, show it to lots of people and will never know or care. I too may have some of them but I'll never know since I will never go around trying to find out. I'd rather be happy with what I've got. Might be just my opinion, but I think to many are way to worried about things that are trivial in nature. Possibly a feeling after 4 cancer operations though. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3233 Posts |
Carl: I've been burned too many times when it comes time to sell a coin like this. Also, yeah, it's partly psychological, once I know and/or see a problem with the coin, that's all I'll notice.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
936 Posts |
Prethen,
I was at a coin show today and there was an seller who specializes in ancients. He had literately hundreds of them ranging from $10-1,000's, anyway I got his card from him if you are interested in the information.
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Valued Member
United States
76 Posts |
USArmyParatrooper: I found a nice silver antoninius (nice size silver coin twice as big as a denarius), from about 244 A.D., for $35 from Forvm Coins. Very nice condition. They are relatively common, so they don't cost a lot, but they are very old, made of silver (at least part silver - the Romans made them out of less and less silver as time went on!), and in nice condition (I think it was graded VF+). I didn't buy it as an investment, but for $35 I have a nice old coin that is fun to look at and people marvel at the age and condition it's in.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2703 Posts |
quote:
how can you be sure that different dies weren't used with a slightly different look? Is there some sort of other "test" I could have used for authenticity?
The first year portraits of Vespasian, before he arrived in Rome, were really guesses at what he looked like and have a different look. The later portraits were remarkably well standardized, depicting the emperor with a large round head. Sure, it is possible that this coin was from a different looking die, but IMHO not likely. I would want to find another example in wildwinds, other online resources or reference books which had the different looking portrait, and ideally with this reverse. So far I have not found any denarii with the Judaea captive reverse which have a portrait which looks like this one. Alternatively, I would look for it the databases of know fakes to find a match. There is no single test to determine if it is authentic. Experts render an opinion based on a combination of factors: is there evidence of casting, does the style look correct, does the metal look similar in quality and appearance to genuine examples, do the flow lines the metal look convincing, are there the typical irregularities and defects you expect from the technology used to manufacture the coin, is it a twin of a known fake, etc. I think of it a probability function with several weighted terms. In the equation are also other peoples opinions, the reliability and knowledge of the seller, the venue it is being offered. Overall you decide how probable it is that the coin is authentic. Since these are readily available -- meaning that I can always find one or more online for sale -- I would pass on any coin which I was not >90% sure that it was authentic. The non-standard portrait tells me to pass. The overriding concern with ancients is authenticity. With regard to defects on ancient coins, you have to expect them, and if the coin looks too perfect, you begin to suspect it is not authentic, or it has been heavily tooled and smoothed. I would not recommend buying ancient coins on ebay. At least not until you feel comfortable identifying the prevalent fakes which are sold there. Even reputable dealers commonly have 10% or more fakes in their inventory, since many fakes are deceptive, or the coins have not been examined that closely, or the dealer simply doesn't have the experience to tell the difference. A good place to buy a nice looking high quality ancient is at cngcoins.com. They have regular online auctions and keep an archive of all coins sold. So your purchase will have an online pedigree from CNG which you can point to when it comes time to sell the coin. IMHO, this "ex-CNG" pedigree is much better than having the coin in a plastic slab from any of the services. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3233 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1283 Posts |
I'll look into that, Always Write. Are most collectors of ancients also history buffs? I would imagine knowing the history behind the coin is half the fun.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2703 Posts |
quote:
Are most collectors of ancients also history buffs?
yes quote:
I would imagine knowing the history behind the coin is half the fun.
yes quote:
I would really like to have just one, really old, interesting piece.
Email me and I would be happy to send you one. |
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,398 |
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Posted 08/25/2007 01:01 am
