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London Die 1921 Penny?.

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 4,840Next Topic  
Valued Member

Australia
301 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2014  03:50 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add sweetap to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi another coin I have found in my collection of hundreds.

Neal I think this might be in your speciality department.

Coin is worn but does still look nice in hand better than the photos.

After doing some reading on sterling currency site ( http://www.sterlingcurrency.com.au/...cimal-rarity ) they were saying that the 1921 London die penny in any condition is quite a rare penny so I got my 40 + 1921 pennies out and bugger me there was one that I believe is a London die every other 1921 penny I have was the Indian obverse die. The last stroke on the N in OMN lines up with the rim dimple. But this one is definitely between the dimples.

If you can confirm for me that I'm not seeing things and value although I don't think its worth a fortune $5 maybe ?. I'm going to keep it so value isn't a big deal just nice to know.

Neal is there any other years and variations I should look for. Thank you for any help again.




London-Die-1921-Penny?.

London-Die-1921-Penny?.

London-Die-1921-Penny?.
Edited by sweetap
10/15/2014 03:52 am
Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2014  05:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like an English.
They are not "quite rare", more like "very scarce". Even in average circulation condition they are worth $10 to $20. Not worth a fortune but always nice to find.
There are 3 die pairs that I know of. One pair has a reverse die (blob above TR) that was paired with obverse dies from 3 separate master dies (the English obverse and the Indian obverses of 1920 and 1921); that means that the most likely source of the English obverse was the master of 1922 and the Perth Mint was the mint that struck the 1921 English.
The scarcest die pair has a missing top scroll.
Valued Member
Australia
301 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2014  06:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sweetap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Neil all good.

Funny thing you say there is one with the top scroll missing this coin in the photo may appear as the word ONE and the inner bead is worn at the top but it actually isn't its as thick as the rest of the stamping its just discoloured but the scroll is almost non existent I mean you can catch your nail in the bead and letters easily but the scroll is so flat its just about not there.
I mean it really is very faint and half almost not there at all, I cant see how the scroll could be so warn yet the bead and lettering so good.

But again thank you. I'm happy its one I never new I had , Is there any other varieties I can check for I have many of just about every year except 1930 of course.
Edited by sweetap
10/15/2014 07:05 am
Valued Member
Australia
301 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2014  07:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sweetap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
LOL bugger me Neil its got the blob above the TR like you mentioned well Ill be, Geez your good . Don't know if you can see it in this pic but its more on the T side.



London-Die-1921-Penny?.

London-Die-1921-Penny?.

Happy little vegemite.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2014  7:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is the TR blob The top scrolls on many GeoV pennies are weak (like your coin) as the design of the obverse takes too much metal to properly fill and leave enough for the other side (especially at the top scroll). The missing top scroll variety has almost no scroll at all.
Now go through your other 40 pennies and see if you can find an Indian with the TR.
Valued Member
Australia
301 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2014  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sweetap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well I'll be a stuffed duck, Just checked me Indian obverse 1921 coins and bugger me 3 TR blob reverse die Indian coins.
That's not many really about seeing how many I have.

So I have 1 London die obverse with blob reverse and 3 Indian obverse with blob reverse. Take note of the top scroll on these to Neil on a couple I can hardly see them one is very faint in deed. Yet the same die.

So Neil I take it what happens there are master dies which they use to make working dies (to stamp the coins) and they get paired up at each mint in random. So Indian Obverse and blob reverse at one mint get paired up then a English Obverse and blob reverse at another mint just get paired up.

Geez your good. .

Coin 1



London-Die-1921-Penny?.

London-Die-1921-Penny?.

London-Die-1921-Penny?.

Coin 2


London-Die-1921-Penny?.

London-Die-1921-Penny?.

London-Die-1921-Penny?.

Coin 3


London-Die-1921-Penny?.

London-Die-1921-Penny?.

London-Die-1921-Penny?.

All 3


London-Die-1921-Penny?.

Cant wait to see what's next, So what are the other 30+ 1921 Pennies then with no blobs.

Edited by sweetap
10/15/2014 10:01 pm
Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2014  05:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 1921 penny was struck in both Perth and Melbourne. There were dozens of die pairs including a few (like the TR blob) with multiple hook up partners. Best thing about 1921 is that the alloy changed so the changeover separates the early 1921 from the late 1921 (and into 1922?).
I still have a few more years of analysis to see if I can identify the position of each die pair in the scheme of things.
Valued Member
Australia
301 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2014  07:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sweetap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Neil, I also have heaps of 1922/23/24s as well and 26 27 28 29. Is there any thing on those I should look for.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2014  09:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For 1922 there are the various wide dates (about 3%),the Indian obverses (about 10% each from the 1920 and 1921 masters) and the FBL English normal date (perhaps 5%).
1923 is a year I am not an expert in (it wasn't struck outside Melbourne and they are all English obverses).
1924 has filled 4s,also Indians (about 8%). The majority are English obverses but there is a distinct difference between Sydney and Melbourne coins (Sydney had flat obverse rims), all Indians are from Sydney mint.
1926 is also another year I am not an expert in. They are all English obverses and they were struck in both Sydney and Melbourne (the majority in Melbourne). At this stage I have not yet determined how to identify Sydney coins from Melbourne coins as I have not yet got around to it.
1927 has the rare Indian obverse that was struck in Melbourne using a single die that had been used for some of the 1924 Indian pennies before being sent to Melbourne after Sydney closed.
1928 has lots of interesting chips on the dies, many were on the master dies and pay attention to the date and OMN. It is very difficult to find a coin without at least one chipped letter or number and some have a dozen or more chips. When the chip is on the master you can use that chip deterioration to determine if the die was an early die from the master or a later die (the chips got worse).
1929 has both English and Indian in roughly equal numbers.The Indians were from a fresh master die sent out from London. The English are often dies with plenty of chips. It needs more research to determine how many were from the old master and how many (if any as I have not really checked) were from the master used to strike the 1930 English die (and 1931 on).
Edited by nealeffendi
10/16/2014 09:11 am
Valued Member
Australia
301 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2014  5:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sweetap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK that's cool Neil looks like I will be busy for some time.

Very excited to hopefully find a few of the harder ones. Will stick to the 1920,s for now hit the 30,s next LOL.

Thanks Neil.
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