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David Gee What Did He Really Copy

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jbuck's Avatar
United States
171034 Posts
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billenben's Avatar
Australia
134 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2022  05:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billenben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What we do know is they found 124 dies.Page 169 of Heads I Win.
That is a lot of dies. What we also know is a lot of blanks (100s) were found with those dies, in various metals, and some samples of his work.
The alleged Gees Florin I have is not perfect and from what the book says Gee spent a fair amount of time having the press run at various pressures on various materials. The two silver Florins I have both seem to have had a touch too much pressure.

Spectroscopy was a tool to help prosecute Gee. It is one way to test if a gold coin or token is a Gee or real. Part of the evidence was Gee had coins with the same spectral readout as the blanks Gee purchased from his supplier. Material clearly not from the period of Adelaide Pounds, early sovereigns, Port Phillips and so on because the blanks Gee used contains elements not available back in those days. That is how good some of the gold fakes were. It took spectroscopy to reveal their falseness.

I can easily see hundreds of pieces of his work having been made as he developed the perfect fake. I would not be surprised if Gee made a 100 Florins in various materials on his way to the examples he sold.
Anything not on gold blank that was a development trial for a gold coin or token would likely have survived. Testing a sovereign die on lead, copper or silver for example. Gee is faking numerous coins in numerous materials. We are talking hundreds of test examples to get a handful of quality fakes.
Gee kept a book with data from his days at the press. He made lots of trial and error test examples and he had 124 dies. That is lots of Gees but mostly not 'perfect'.
Gee was quite frugal, police found a page of gold filings. Some of his failed tests would have been 'recycled', especially any gold failures, but lots of copper, bronze, silver and lead failures, and successes, would have survived.

As for Henderson, I can't help but think Gee had something on him. Why would Henderson go back to the mint, after retirement, to fetch the 50c pattern coins for Gee unless Gee had something on him.
Why would Henderson not throw Gee under the bus at Gees trial?
It is speculation but perhaps Henderson liked films and that gave Gee leverage.



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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21673 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2022  06:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For those who don't know,
James Henderson was the first Controller of the Royal Australian Mint, from which the first 1966 dated Australian Decimal coins were struck in 1965, and were officially issued into circulation on the 14th February, 1966.

David Gee also borrowed or stole genuine dies and coins that were highly important to Australia's early minting history, from the state official archives in the Mitchell Library, Museum of Applied Arts and Sciences (now Powerhouse Museum), and the Royal Australian official collections, and substituted his own convincing copies

Thus,
David Gee was dealing in a highly illegal way with some of the most officially recognized and supposedly respected people in the minting business. He also operated a string of 'blue' movie theatres.
He died in 2013.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

William Herbert Sheldon wasn't exactly a numismatic saint, either.
It was alleged the he stole coins from the ANA cabinet, and substituted some lower grade out of his own collection in their place.
Edited by sel_69l
11/17/2022 06:51 am
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billenben's Avatar
Australia
134 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2022  6:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billenben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some numbers when it comes to Gee's.
This is what was found in just one location.
From the book - Heads I Win
124 coin dies
19 miscellaneous dies
brass plates with various designs
designs in perspex
105 lead impressions of various coins
335 coins and replicas of coins in base metal and plated in copper silver and gold
49 cast tokens
1739 coin blanks in various metals

We aren't just talking about a handful of fakes. This is the 'Gee Mint' with all its variety and its stages of development.
A lot of what was found would (should) have been returned after the trial. All the things that there was no crime attached to.
Just looking at the haul in this one location it is clear there is likely to be literally hundreds of Gees out there, mostly not perfect and representing a work in progress.
I would suggest he got most, if not all, of his personal collection returned to him, even the fake stuff that wasn't classifiable as coins, like Kookaburra patterns which come up from time to time.

As with some pieces of history it is the story that carries much of the value of an item. With forged rare coins it is the story of the real thing along side the story of the forgery and its forger; such is a Gee fake.

The 1909 florin is a coin with its own story. Not surprised an imperfect silver 1909 Florin, an alleged Gee, fetched $1400 at the IAG 87 sale. Nice coin even with the imperfection.
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Basil's Avatar
Australia
1020 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2022  9:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Basil to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes,amazing stats and you haven't mentioned the Stamp forgeries,at least as prolific as Coins.
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billenben's Avatar
Australia
134 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2022  4:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billenben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To (attribute to) Gee or not to (attribute to) Gee.
I questioned this item that I found in a catalogue.
How is it a restrike?
All the pattern Kookaburras pictured in both McDonald or Renniks have the bird on a stick as I like to say. The Kookaburra is on a branch.

There is no stick on the coin listed in the catalogue.
This raised two questions for me.
What is it a 're-strike'- of?
AND
If Gee is the experts expert then how did he not have his bird on a stick?

I have seen several Gee Kookaburras and the common feature is the bird is not on a stick.

Is there an actual Kookaburra where the Kookaburra is not on a branch?

David-Gee-What-Did-He-Really-Copy
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billenben's Avatar
Australia
134 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2022  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billenben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is an alleged Gee that sold for over $1400 at IAG 87.
This example would be close to the standard of the example that Adler purchased for $10k back in 1972. The equivalent of $52k in today's money.
My favorite coin isn't even real; but what a story.

David-Gee-What-Did-He-Really-Copy
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billenben's Avatar
Australia
134 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2022  6:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billenben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I saw a copy of this book on ebay maybe 6 months ago and it was for, I believe, $399 and it sold on an offer.
I was gobsmacked because in previous years it had hovered around the $100 mark.
Even the book attracts good money.

David-Gee-What-Did-He-Really-Copy
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gnome's Avatar
Australia
372 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2022  9:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gnome to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know where this item is now.

David-Gee-What-Did-He-Really-Copy

David-Gee-What-Did-He-Really-Copy
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billenben's Avatar
Australia
134 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2022  10:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billenben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is that a Gee?
Is that the Kookaburra from Roxby March 2022 this year?
(The one in the auction listing)

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gnome's Avatar
Australia
372 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2022  3:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gnome to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I bought it off someone who purchased it from an auction house. He told me it was claimed to be a Gee forgery.

David-Gee-What-Did-He-Really-Copy
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billenben's Avatar
Australia
134 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2022  04:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billenben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lots of alleged Gee's at Noble tonight - 22/11/2022.
A Kangaroo Office set in bronze but the 1/4 is dodgie as, the line is at an angle between the 1 and the 4. Makes me wonder what he was thinking.
Also a couple of Sovereigns (the 2 and 5 pound patterns in silver on white metal (very nice), a Queen Vic obverse trial on lead.
I decided on this one because 1854 is an usual date for a Kangaroo Office. Might get it gold plated for fun


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David-Gee-What-Did-He-Really-Copy
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billenben's Avatar
Australia
134 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2022  04:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billenben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gee knocks up a coin that was never made and convinces the numismatic world it is real, i.e. the 1909 Florin.
Does not surprise me he makes a 1854 Kangaroo or that he would try to convince the numismatic world it is real or at the very least a trial piece.
Looking at 1854 dated token by W Taylor that features the same Kangaroo Office 'shabby' Kangaroo it is not too far fetched to suggest a '54 Kangaroo was pressed; even if just a bronze trial piece.
The 1854 should look great gold plated if I can get that blonde natural gold look on it..

David-Gee-What-Did-He-Really-Copy
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billenben's Avatar
Australia
134 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2022  02:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billenben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
More Gee at Noble today.
A 'pattern' Crown.
In typical Gee style he would have done his best to convince collectors this is a 'one of a kind' and worth every penny of his asking price.

David-Gee-What-Did-He-Really-Copy
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billenben's Avatar
Australia
134 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2022  02:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billenben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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