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 Replies: 12 / Views: 2,943 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1374 Posts |
Can someone help explain how dies can clash off-center while in a press? This would require at least one of the two dies being misaligned.
For instance, if the hammer die is off-center, it seems that it would hit the collar before striking the other die. Does the collar have to be missing for an off-center clash to occur?
Flynn's book on the subject notes 6 confirmed off-center clashes across all dates and series. None of them are paired with the die with which they were clashed.
Keep in mind I'm not talking about off-center strikes, which is created by an off-center planchet. Without looking at the press itself, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around how off-center clashes can happen in the press. I can only imagine the hammer die being dropped while switching it out - but that doesn't seem to make much sense. Wouldn't the die have to slide into the collar, at least partially, to strike the anvil die?
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Valued Member
United States
324 Posts |
On a Graebner press, the collar is mounted on air cylinders which act like springs. The collar is held in the up position when a coin is struck, but if the upper die is misaligned or a blank is off center, the collar will be pushed down to prevent major damage.
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1374 Posts |
Okay, cool. I'm not an error expert, so this might be a dumb question. Do we have struck coins that exhibit only one die being off-center?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1374 Posts |
dave700x - That to me appears to be an off-center clash, with a point of rotation not in the center of the die. As if the die had rotated along its edge. To be more clear, what I see seems to be more of a shift than a rotation. If a die exhibits more than one clash, and the die rotates between those clashes, then the pivot point is intuitively in the center of the coin. However, when the clashes are off-set, or shifted from one another - it certainly makes me think the dies were misaligned when they clashed. However, it seems plausible that they can also be tilted and/or rotated when misaligned... which could help explain the VAM you linked. Edited by Drsandman2
10/21/2014 1:47 pm
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
I don't see anything with 1C not explainable by a violent clash event loosening the attachment of the anvil die and allowing it to rotate a bit during subsequent clash strikes. Don't forget, at full speed the presses were striking 2.5 coins per second - a die could clash 3-4 times in the moment it took for the operator to see and react.
Off-center clashes are rare because they require something pretty significant to break to make them possible. Not unknown - stuff breaks - but a pretty significant, "this press is down for the duration" kind of event.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1374 Posts |
Okay, how is this explained? A friend of mine is trying to convince me it is a rotated die. One clash here looks close to center, the other is shifted to the point that Liberty's chin is touching or almost touching the wreath. You can also see how the entire bust is shifted to the south. This, IMHO, can not be possible unless the dies were misaligned. I provided an overlay of the CN cent. As you can see, no matter how you rotate the dies, Liberty's chin would never come close to that wreath. Edit: BTW - What I am seeing on that Morgan is similar to this IHC - a shift and not a rotation. But maybe I am seeing things.   Edited by Drsandman2
10/22/2014 9:25 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1374 Posts |
I failed to point out the rim on the clashed coin above. You can tell there is a lip on the rim in the same exact direction of the clashing... EDIT: Okay, see the image I made below. Compare to outer most clash on the subject coin. I believe this coin exhibits both off-center die clash and a slight rotation... and a rotation between clashes.  Edited by Drsandman2
10/22/2014 10:40 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1374 Posts |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
I've been thinking.  Did you create that IHC overlay? If so, play with rotating the one face a bit against the other. Looks very much to me like you've got an offset clash - I don't really think enough space is opening on the neck side of the clash to explain the larger spaces between the jawline clashes with just rotation. But keep in mind, these are large distances in a high-res image which are very small distances indeed on the coin. The displacement of parts from whatever broke isn't great, and a crack in the correct part would be enough. Stuff breaks, more often than one might think. Minting coins was terrific force for the metallurgy of the day. The arch of Carson City Press #1 itself actually broke once, and the arch is a solid piece of metal a couple feet thick. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
interesting.
Edited by dave700x
10/24/2014 2:00 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1374 Posts |
SuperD - Yeah, I created that overlay and you can spin either layer. Perhaps I will make a video. My plan is to get some nice pictures up today of this coin. The obverse also shows off-center clashing. If this coin exhibits off-center clashing, it will be the very first that is found paired with the die that made the clash. There is a possibility that this coin can help us solve the mystery of off-center clashes. My hope is that it will be a treasure and a real find.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Some of the marks on the IHC reverse resemble the lower chin of Liberty  |
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Replies: 12 / Views: 2,943 |
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Posted 10/21/2014 1:34 pm
