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Coins Lost To Time, Nature, And Mankind

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CelticKnot's Avatar
United States
12822 Posts
 Posted 11/29/2014  02:51 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add CelticKnot to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
In a recent topic, plonker wondered how some ancient coins could be so well preserved throughout the ages:

https://goccf.com/t/191460

On a pessimistic twist, I counter with how many we have lost over the ages. One wonders how many museums, collections, hoards, Münzkabinetts, etc. have been lost to the ravages of time, nature, and mankind. Think of the tsunami in Japan a few years back, or Katrina, or Sandy, or 9/11, or the WWII bombings that destroyed many of Europe's oldest cities, or major thefts where priceless coins have never been recovered (and possibly melted *shudder*), etc.

I believe most (if not all) of the bullion and such was recovered from the wreckage of 9/11. I know some coin stores were destroyed in Sandy. Most likely in Katrina, too. It follows that there would be some private collections and museums that had pieces destroyed, washed away or looted.

I look at my safe and, while it is substantial, I realize that a hot enough fire or a flood would probably spoil the contents, or at least turn the metal into bullion.

Don't mean to be a total downer here but this crossed my mind when reading the other thread and I wondered if anyone here knew of some major museum/collection/hoard losses.

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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16827 Posts
 Posted 11/29/2014  06:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coins can certainly be lost due to accident, particularly to drastic accidents. I recall particularly the ancient Judaean coin that the Israeli astronaut Ilan Ramon carried with him on the ill-fated final flight of the shuttle Columbia. I don't believe it was ever found amongst the recovered debris.

However, most coins that are "lost" are only lost temporarily. Coins are far more durable than we give them credit for. Unless they are actually destroyed by melting, they've got a pretty good chance of surviving until they are rediscovered. Coins buried in landslides, crushed under collapsed buildings in earthquakes, even coins lost overboard by ships can all one one day be found again. Finding them is an engineering problem, not a physics problem.

Of course, survival rates also depend on what the coins are made of. If the dinosaurs had struck gold coins, we would still be able to find them today, pretty much intact; our own gold coins would likewise survive indefinitely. Silver coins should also survive for millions of years in a recognizable form. Bronze and other base-metals, however, tend to turn back into the ores from which they came after just a few thousand years, even less if the conditions are more corrosive (such as seawater).

The final factor regarding survival is, of course, the nature of the civilization that re-discovers them - will they care enough about historic artifacts from a long-lost civilization enough to bother preserving them? I recall reading the story of a hoard of ancient Roman silver coins found by chance in Italy during the middle ages. The hoard was so huge, it took days for a team of men to empty the pot they were found in. Every single one of those coins was promptly melted down by the prince who owned the land they were found on, who used the silver to make a nice batch of his own coins.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 11/29/2014  10:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We can include the manmade loss of half of all Morgans minted to the Pittman Act. That's balanced somewhat by the cubic miles of 1921 Morgans and later Peace dollars, but a great single loss to posterity.
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 Posted 11/29/2014  10:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Chinese Cultural Revolution is one of the events that come to mind.

Back in the late 1950s when Chinese Communism started to gain a strong hold, there was a strong urge to get rid of bourgeois ideology and anything that didn't conform to Communism ideology. A lot of ancient texts were burnt, pots and pans were melted down to create useless pig iron and of course, coins were not spared.

That said, how about coins that were reused and overstruck as brand new coins? Would you classify those original coins as "lost"?
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scottk's Avatar
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 Posted 11/29/2014  10:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scottk to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sort of funny to me sometimes that most of us go after coins that appear to have been kept in glass capsules from day one when some of the most historically rich coins have been blown up, burned, shot, tossed from ships, drowned, and hurled miles through the earths atmosphere.
Edited by scottk
11/29/2014 11:06 am
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CelticKnot's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 11/30/2014  02:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CelticKnot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Sort of funny to me sometimes that most of us go after coins that appear to have been kept in glass capsules from day one...

I wonder if that's a product of our culture and upbringing... failure is bad... must get straight A's in school... things must always be pristine and perfect....


Quote:
However, most coins that are "lost" are only lost temporarily. Coins are far more durable than we give them credit for.

Good point. And one only needs to look as far back as 9/11 to see the truth in that. 500k tons or so of rubble per tower crashed down on basement vaults yet we see "9/11" ASE's for sale all the time. Part of me would like to own a piece of history like that, especially since it ties in to my hobby... but not if it lines someone's pockets.



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NumisRob's Avatar
United Kingdom
17930 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2014  04:43 am  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's an interesting account of a hoard of medieval silver pennies that was discovered in 1807 - and mostly melted!



http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress...abulous-find
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 Posted 11/30/2014  3:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There was a post some time ago about all the things people do to and with coins. And in many instances with little regard to dates, mint marks, condition, etc. I can only imagine how many 1909S VDB Lincolns were melted down for Copper. Or thrown into ponds, pools, lakes, rivers, etc. And that is only one coin to think about. Picture how many Silver coins are melted every day to make other things with. And again with no thoughts to dates, mint marks or condition.
In that post about all the things people do to coins it was amazing that there are any coins left at all.
Why I remember melting an entire roll of 1913 Liberty Head Nickels thinking they were Silver.
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Altaira's Avatar
Canada
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 Posted 11/30/2014  5:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Altaira to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Canadian ARP program is one. They've probably melted millions of key dates by now.

This one's by no means significant, but a long time ago I've heard that Indonesian Rp 100 and Rp 500 brass coins were exported by the freight container-load to Malaysia to be melted when copper prices rose. I don't know the extent of the truth of this statement, but just think what if there were some sort of rare error in there?
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 Posted 11/30/2014  9:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add StJoeBlues to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I look at my safe and, while it is substantial, I realize that a hot enough fire or a flood would probably spoil the contents, or at least turn the metal into bullion.


That reminds me of a quote from the Bible:
Matthew 6:19-20: Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

For me, it puts into perspective the true "value" of my collection. It's all transitory.
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 Posted 12/01/2014  09:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I look at my safe and, while it is substantial, I realize that a hot enough fire or a flood would probably spoil the contents, or at least turn the metal into bullion.

I've warned about this many times. Almost any fire that can get to or near a safe will make the insides hot. True, maybe the fire will not get to your STUFF in the safe, but the heat will do a massive bad job. Remember all the plastic things like slides in Albums? Remember all the plastic used in slabs? Then too what about paper, ink, glues, etc. All that gets hot and melts all over the coins.
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NG43's Avatar
Canada
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 Posted 12/01/2014  6:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NG43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Or thrown into ponds, pools, lakes, rivers, etc.
-just carl


That has probably claimed thousands of noteworthy coins over the years.
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Conder101's Avatar
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17884 Posts
 Posted 12/02/2014  12:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
However, most coins that are "lost" are only lost temporarily.

True, we are still recovering coins from the 1715 Spanish Treasure fleet, and all the ancient coins still being found in Europe.
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