Hi all. I'm relatively new to numismatics so I'm very glad to have found such a great resource to tap. Recently I picked up a few sovereigns from my LCS and amongst them was an 1877 s st.george. I didn't really think much of it but when I got home and looked in my Renaiks guide it wasn't listed. I assumed this was a typographical error but when I looked online I found a couple of sources that said they didn't make any that year. I weighed it (within 1/100th of a gram of my 1875s) and later took it to a bullion dealer to be XRFd and sure enough it's 22k. I took it to a local numismatic place here in Adelaide where a very helpful dealer pointed out to me that Krause has a listing for 2 known Sydney st george 1877 sovs so apparently they did have a die and did make at least a couple. The friendly dealer has taken scans and has sent an email off to the person he thinks might have contributed some of the sovereign information to krause that year but I was wondering if people here might have some ideas about avenues of research I could pursue on my own?
I would particularly like to find a picture of the known couple that exist as I know there is some variation on Sydney sovereigns of the period and I might be able to compare some of the features. Apart from that any helpful books or ideas would be greatly accepted.
I realise on balance the coin is likely to be a fake but it looks right to me and the dealers I've shown it to (insofar as it not being a cast jewelers copy) and the weight and alloy are right so I figure it's worth pursuing. Frankly, I had assumed that it had to be fake but the fact that they might have struck some in Sydney that year gives me a glimmer of hope.
This coin should ideally be inspected in hand however here are a few tips for you to try and determine it's authenticity.
Firstly is there a line around the edge of the coin or a flaw in the reeding on the edge? This would give credence to the possibility of a cast coin.
Secondly if you have a magnifier take a look at the mintmark. Is the area around it flat? Does the S seem consistent with other Sydney Sovereigns? If the area around it is flat or the S is not consistent then it may be an altered mintmark.
Thirdly have a long look at the date and compare it to the other 1877s Sovereigns if you can find a picture. If you can't find a picture of the other two examples have a look at the style of the 7's in the date compared to other sovereigns. If they are inconsistent with the 7's used on other Sovereigns then it may be an altered date.
Fourthly when you did the XRF what other metals were present? If it is copper which makes up the rest of it's composition then it has the correct metal mix as the planchets were made in 92.5% Gold and 7.5% Copper(Silver was initially mixed with Gold for some of the early Sydney Mint coins but was discontinued due to it's value.)
If you pause the video at 0.29 and have a close look at the rim between 1 and 2 o'clock as it doesn't look right. The denticles on both sides of that area are well struck but that part has what appears to be no denticles. This in itself would lend credence to casting.
It looks pretty similar to my untrained eye to my 1885s though I'm certainly no expert. Finding a picture if the other 2 is proving difficult, frankly I was kind of hoping someone here might know of a good place to look. It XRFd 22k copper gold and the weight is dead on so if it isn't real I think it's an attempt at a counterfeit rather than a jewelers copy (no evidence of it being attached to a necklace it ring)...except if it's a counterfeit, why make one that would immediately be noticed as suspect by the sort of people who would regularly handle sovs like bankers or high level traders? I still think on balance it likely isn't one of a couple made that year but it's an odd choice for a fake.
If anyone knows where I might find a picture of the '77 s st george I'd be forever grearful. Cheers.
There was apparently a load of fake Oz. Sovereigns imported into Australia in the 1960's,you never hear about them anymore so they have either disappeared into the ether or the whole story was a Furphy.The Coin Dealer that spoke to us one period a week back then(at School) said a Oz Squash player bought back a bag/hoard from the Middle East(Egypt/Turkey?) after attending a Tournament there.
Apologies got the late reply and poor quality pictures, I've been having camera problems so these are just phone pics but they will give you an idea.
Noble's seems like the place, I had the coin looked at locally and been referred to him as well. My girlfriend has wanted to go away on a short holiday, maybe Sydney is the go and I can kill two birds with one stone. Plus the Sydney Mint is nearby, maybe they have done records or pictures that might help.
Frankly at this point I would settle for a picture of another example. Sydney sovs of this period apparently have some variation in different aspects of the layout, like the position of the s mint mark, if I could see another verified one I could compare them and possibly discredit this one in a few minutes. I still think it's likely a fake but you have to run it downb just in case.
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Posted 12/09/2014 10:48 am
