A Reply From Ebay To A Forgery Claim

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Author	Replies: 22 / Views: 6,430	Page: of 2
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 01/03/2015 7:17 pm We have discussed several times the very bad Chinese numismatic forgeries of 8 reales which are stamped with a bogus George III oval privy stamp (among others). One such seller is rhongirl. Well an eBayer that I have been corresponding with for a few weeks cowpiedinner - who posted the double stamped Philippines fake 8R - also bought two coins from rhongirl. The fellow Ed Gage is now trying to return all three coins to the sellers and has filed complaints with ebay. I thought it might be of interest for all members to read the ebay response to a claim of numismatic forgery. Below is not only my reply to Ed but also the ebay reply he received: Quote: Hi Ed, This reply is ludicrous - " the manufacture or a law enforcement to confirm if the Item is authentic or not" is a standard that can NOT be met. No law enforcement personnel are even remotely qualified to make such a confirmation and of course no one living today is the manufacturer. This reply shows exactly what is now wrong with ebay - they now set a standard that is impossible to meet. This must have been done to REDUCE the number of claims. How about a TPG ? I wonder if they would accept their opinion - but who pays for that cost and how about the time needed? Try sending my notes to you - I could ask for other opinions but ebay could just rejected them. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Edward Gage <roundtopia@gmail.com> To: swamperbob22 <swamperbob22@aol.com> Sent: Sat, Jan 3, 2015 5:22 pm Subject: Fwd: Case # 5075480862: Your case is on hold ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ebay <ebay@ebay.com> Date: Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:31 AM Subject: Case # 5075480862: Your case is on hold To: roundtopia@gmail.com ebay ebay sent this message to Edward Gage (cowpiedinner). Your registered name is included to show this message originated from ebay. Learn more. ebay Customer Support has placed the case on hold until Jan 07, 2015 Hi cowpiedinner, Your case was placed on hold temporarily. We will get back to you with an update by Jan 07, 2015. ebay Customer Support Comments: We need written confirmation from the manufacture or a law enforcement to confirm if the Item is authentic or not. You can view the details of this case in the Resolution Center. MEXICO Pillar 1762 8 MF REALES SILVER COINS MEXICO Pillar 1762 8 MF REALES SILVER COINS Item # : 111522862308 Sale price: $158.05 Quantity: 1 Sale date: Nov-25-14 13:24:08 PST Seller: rhongirl Case #: 5075480862 Case opened: Jan-02-15 08:10:55 PST View purchased item Go to the Resolution Center -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Email reference id: [#3df495fad645489592995a0b77b965ad#] As I said to Ed - the answer sets a standard that is IMPOSSIBLE to meet. I guess we now know how much ebay values authenticity and truth. This is the next step past "Let the buyer beware." It is far more like: Quote: Buy what you will - you have NO recourse. Report this Post to the Staff

jdmern Pillar of the Community United States 1949 Posts	Posted 01/03/2015 7:43 pm In general, I was under the impression that LEGALLY the bar was set at certain number of opinions of experts, nothing in regards to the manufacturer or law enforcement. I.e. I purchase from an art dealer a Picasso, I show it to another dealer who declares it to be a forgery, initial art dealer disputes status, obtain written declarations from other experts in the field, sue dealer who initially sold forgery. The standard ebay would be setting would be absurd if that's what is supposed to be followed. Boardwalk Numismatics http://stores.ebay.com/jdmern/ https://boardwalknumismatics.com Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 01/03/2015 7:50 pm jdmern I agree that your version of what should be required makes sense - but that is NOT what ebay is asking for in their letter to the seller. I see this as simply the next logical step following the Let the buyer beware defense. Of course my opinion of ebay fell through the floor when the new owners decided to dismiss the panel of expert. Report this Post to the Staff
paxbrit Pillar of the Community United States 992 Posts	Posted 01/03/2015 9:00 pm Wow, when I got burned with some Cyprus 45 Piastre crowns two years ago, the standard seemed to be "these are Chinese fakes, give me a refund". That's all it took to reverse a PayPal payment and recoup, for me, anyway. Report this Post to the Staff
SteveCaruso Pillar of the Community United States 1796 Posts	Posted 01/03/2015 10:04 pm Everything I hear from the ebay camp nowadays when it comes to counterfeits seems to be a cut corner, a cop-out, or just unadulterated crap. This is just as absurd as the Minnesota "bullion" registration requirements. Also the grammar found within the sentence, "We need written confirmation from the manufacture or a law enforcement to confirm if the Item is authentic or not," screams "OUTSOURCED" to me. Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 01/03/2015 10:06 pm paxbrit Two years ago there was a committee in place that voted on the status of reports like yours and made a decision based on the merits of the coin. There were 7 members in coins but I was specifically the world coin specialist. The coin would be reviewed by all or most members and a reply was made to the manager in charge. That committee was let go in March 2014 and now ebay has no one who has the expertise to make such a decision. The people at ebay rely on the person posting the item to be at least honest and will take their word as equal to any single complaint. Another issue is that each complaint will be handed off to a single ebay employee to be handled and it is the luck of the draw who you get. There is little to no uniformity in the system as a result. We noticed that whenever the primary manager was on vacation - the cover people were always more difficult to convince a coin was a forgery. Now with no committee to argue the case - you are left at the mercy of one manager who may be having a bad day. I suspect that a series of similar complaints will eventually tip the scale in favor of the buyers. However, there is nothing in the rules that mandate that. The normal procedure after a complaint is for ebay to contact the seller asking for a reply. If the seller fails to respond to an ebay inquiry - then a case will often be decided in the buyer's favor rather quickly. But if the seller insists the coin is genuine it could become a squabble. It will definitely require that the coin has to be returned (usually at the buyer's expense) and the refund if issued covers only the sale price not the shipping. So good luck - expect buying to get more not less risky. Report this Post to the Staff
vermontensium Moderator United States 16677 Posts	Posted 01/03/2015 10:17 pm It could only get better, it has to, or ebay may be doomed as well as other online auction sites. swcoin.ecrater.com Report this Post to the Staff
stampvirgin Pillar of the Community United States 1247 Posts	Posted 01/03/2015 10:52 pm swamperbob, I remember you from the stamp forum when you were disposing of an estate. How did that go? Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 01/04/2015 12:11 am stampvirgin The sale of the estate went very well. Just wish I had the time to sell all of the letters individually. The sale took about 6 months and returned $130,000 to the estate. The coins returned just over $20,000 but the junk I salvaged (preventing it from being thrown away) brought in $110,000. That is after all expenses were paid including my fee, travel etc. Report this Post to the Staff
OneDollarMule Valued Member Australia 338 Posts	Posted 01/04/2015 09:29 am I've had the exact opposite experience on ebay recently, I sold a coin in good-faith which is 100% authentic and the seller claimed it was a fake. After supplying ebay with literature references, past sales and a detailed explanation of why the coin is real, they ruled in the buyers favour without a lick of evidence from the buyer. The buyer was refunded the full amount though ebay and was not required to send me back the coin (which he actually did) and the buyer left negative feedback on my account which I cannot appeal. As a buyer, it seems you have all the power in the world, can claim anything is fake without proving evidence and its ample grounds to have your money refunded. Moreover, you can leave any feedback you want, can claim something is fake for example, without giving a single reason why. Following the link in my signature you can see the coin and feedback. Report this Post to the Staff
stampvirgin Pillar of the Community United States 1247 Posts	Posted 01/04/2015 10:45 am swamperbob... well done sir... I hope the stamp forum folks were of benefit. Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 01/04/2015 2:09 pm stampvirgin Yes there was a lot of help. OneDollarMule Can you post the photos you used for the auction? The auction number if the auction is still there? Your experience is far from typical of the way ebay is working at present. Something more has to be there - like the credentials of the buyer. Was the sale on the ebay AU site or US? Report this Post to the Staff
OneDollarMule Valued Member Australia 338 Posts	Posted 01/04/2015 7:29 pm Swamperbob: The coin is ebay Number: 271671177661, it was listed on ebay US. The case was closed by ebay, they refunded the buyer and I wasn't at fault. I'll be able to get some screens of the case to see what information was provided by the buyer. Report this Post to the Staff
Westwood Arms Pillar of the Community United States 684 Posts	Posted 01/04/2015 8:37 pm Not very expensive and the guy sends you back the coin. What did you do with it? Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 01/05/2015 01:09 am The coin is in my opinion highly suspect - the reason is because the relief is far too high, the casting is rather regular at the perimeter and far too well preserved in my opinion. I usually use Wildwinds to assess ancient coins along with my own files of modern forgeries. Your coin reminds me of several rather similar cast numismatic forgeries of rather similar types. Report this Post to the Staff
paxbrit Pillar of the Community United States 992 Posts	Posted 01/05/2015 6:47 pm Swamperbob, thanks for the information. I did get a full refund, but had to eat the shipping both ways, as I returned the fakes to the vendor. The fakes were, however, tested to the point of unsaleability to the next sucker to come along. Report this Post to the Staff
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