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Fake/Counterfeit 1897 Liberty V Nickel

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bungle's Avatar
Japan
349 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  11:39 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add bungle to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Why would anyone make this?
The date is absurdly large and there is a piece of the first T missing in STATES.

Does it look cast to anyone else?
But it has cartwheel luster...
Weight/dimensions are the same as a real nickel.

Fake/Counterfeit-1897-Liberty-V-Nickel

Fake/Counterfeit-1897-Liberty-V-Nickel

Fake/Counterfeit-1897-Liberty-V-Nickel
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  12:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I....um....wow. That's either the biggest-separation overdate ever or the counterfeiter was drunk. Pretty good fake otherwise, just a bit soft.
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edweather's Avatar
United States
7375 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  12:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Any casting seam on the edge?
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allranger's Avatar
United States
1391 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  1:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add allranger to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
. I like it.
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  1:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a *gorgeous* counterfeit. But the date... oh the date... :-)
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Nickel Guy's Avatar
United States
604 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  4:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Nickel Guy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like he did a pretty good job in general.

Apparently though, when he took a break for lunch, his 8 year old boy did a favor for dad and finished-up by engraving the date for him.
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matthewvincent's Avatar
United States
3486 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  4:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The scary thing is the coin looks good EXCEPT for the date.
Any collector of these nickels would immediately notice the enlargement of the date.
And not much of a case can be made that this is a contemporary counterfeit* of the era as the coin looks brand new.
Another mystery ...

*Counterfeited to pass as a nickel during the time when these nickels were current.

Edited by matthewvincent
01/05/2015 4:14 pm
Valued Member
bungle's Avatar
Japan
349 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bungle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ed - I thought the edge might have been filed, but some normal nickels look similar.

Pic of the edge:
Left: 2008
Middle: This coin ("1897")
Right: 1887

Fake/Counterfeit-1897-Liberty-V-Nickel

Some closeups:
Because the way the denticles look, I thought it might be cast. Especially in the upper-left area.
You can see a few die scratches/polish lines, and a die gouge near the funny looking right dot.

Fake/Counterfeit-1897-Liberty-V-Nickel

Fake/Counterfeit-1897-Liberty-V-Nickel

Fake/Counterfeit-1897-Liberty-V-Nickel
Edited by bungle
01/05/2015 4:43 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  4:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You can see it easily once you start looking closely - things which ought to be sharp if other things are, aren't, and there are places where the intersection between device and field is clearly suspect.
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Nickel Guy's Avatar
United States
604 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  5:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Nickel Guy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@bungle

Well it's agreed that it's counterfeit.
However, you brought up a good question, why go through all the trouble to make a common date Liberty.

Were they just practicing up for when they make the 1885?
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  5:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Seeing the up-close pictures, this one was certainly struck, not cast. The master die was probably made from a genuine nickel via a transfer process or even CNC scanning.

The date, however, I simply cannot account for. They probably were hand-punching them or adding them on to the initial scan to make the whole series, which is much easier/lazier than scanning a coin of each year/mm. :-)

Very often they'll re-use reverse dies over multiple years for the same reason (which leads to type mismatches, but also a means to easily test if it's from the same manufacturer via die markers; this is how the infamous Micro-O Morgans got caught).
Edited by SteveCaruso
01/05/2015 5:50 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  6:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A transfer process - if so this was a good one - would explain the "just about but not quite everything" look. Thinking about it, I have to wonder if the raw dies made it into the hands of a second, less-skilled party before the "date" was applied.

There might be a fascinating story we'll never know behind this one. Wonder why we haven't seen more.
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nickelsearcher's Avatar
United States
15420 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  7:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent fake less the obvious date ... the close up photos of the raised tooling marks and dots confirm all opinions of a reasonably well executed counterfeit ...

Well execute of course except for the date!

Please share how you came across this example.

David
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.jk-dk.art
Edited by nickelsearcher
01/05/2015 7:27 pm
Valued Member
kevro22's Avatar
United States
250 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  7:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kevro22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is the new large date/drunken engraver variety :)
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DoubleEagle20's Avatar
United States
1748 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  10:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DoubleEagle20 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No one has seen the "wacky date" variety of 1897 Liberty head nickels?

JK, of course.
Edited by DoubleEagle20
01/05/2015 11:01 pm
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BluegrassRiver's Avatar
United States
324 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2015  11:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BluegrassRiver to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The numbers are bad because it is made in China. They always have a problem with the numbers since their characters for numbers look so different. They have a real problem with numbers like you would with their characters.
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