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New Black Cabinet Feature In The Works: Certification Shield

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Pillar of the Community
SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2015  11:17 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I'm presently testing out the new "Certification Shield" feature with the growing list of counterfeit slabs I'm adding to The Black Cabinet's listings. In essence, you can save a list of cert numbers to your account which are then immediately checked against the database, informing you if any of them have been compromised with counterfeits. (At that point, you'll want to ascertain if yours is a copy or the genuine article, and if it's genuine, contact the TPG and see about getting it re-holdered with new number.)

Secondly, if any cert numbers that match your list are then subsequently added to the database, you're immediately alerted by email.

Where searching the database on your own will always be free, Certification Shield (i.e. the list tracking and email alert system) is going to be a premium feature (as maintaining the database it is quite time and labor intensive).

New-Black-Cabinet-Feature-In-The-Works:-Certification-Shield
Pillar of the Community
SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  09:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just tested the final iteration before it goes into beta and everything seems to be working properly. :-)

More news as it becomes available.
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Wade's Avatar
Canada
2781 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  10:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
so sad that we need third party verification of third party authentication,

I hope your project is a success
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  11:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sadly, the better mousetraps of TPGs gave way to better counterfeiting mice.

Hopefully this will prove to be an even better mousetrap. :-)
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
187702 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  11:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I like this.

I have not bought a slab yet, but with so many keys to buy it is going to happen. Eventually.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  1:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
so sad that we need third party verification of third party authentication


It's an unfortunate truth in our hobby that we must approach the counterfeiting problem in much the same fashion as the antivirus business approaches computer viruses - you can't be proactive so you have to be as efficiently reactive as possible. Get the fix out as fast as you can, and disseminate it as widely as possible. The fix in this case is the knowledge that counterfeits exist and the images which let you identify them.

It's war.
Valued Member
KevinH's Avatar
United States
172 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  3:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KevinH to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent.

Steve, as an expert could you give us collectors a couple of ballpark figures, or do you not think good data exists for the following:

1. The percentage of fakes showing up in the market that are from China/AliBaba

2. The rate of increase in #1 and when it really started to take off.

3. The rate of increase or decrease in the quality of the fakes. I have noticed that they are even doing really good fakes of the SLABS now....

Thanks.

Kevin.
Edited by KevinH
01/19/2015 3:55 pm
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  5:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@KevinH - My current feelings in a nutshell:

1) I'd wager that as high as 80-90% of the new counterfeit coins coming onto the market are from China/AliBaba right now. The AliBaba website makes things far too easy to order fake coins in bulk overseas (AliBaba has in many ways completely changed the game for smaller Chinese manufacturers, much like how Amazon.com has changed the game for traditional publishers). The suppliers there also actively cater to the unscrupulous folks.

2) The biggest rate of increase in recent times was the Great Recession and the following boom of precious metals. Common dates became commonly counterfeited then because they were commercially feasible, and even when the prices of silver and gold have retreated the production hasn't because the boom left making the fakes cheaper. Furthermore, in the past decade, coin collecting is becoming a more prominent hobby in China (and PCGS has expanded there) so awareness of collectible coin values are up. With all of this in mind, my feeling is that we're looking at an exponential trend.

The biggest "bump" right now is that when the Russian ruble took a plunge in value, all of the sales of fake Russian gold and silver on AliBaba spiked hard.

3) Where there are an absolute *flood* of cheap fakes on the market (thankfully that are spotted easily and outweigh all of the good fakes) the quality is still getting much better as they use scanning techniques and CNC milling machines to make their dies. Their fake slabs are getting much better as well, and the combination of the two are fetching big prices on ebay.

I'd wager that in the next 10 years or so, we may have a serious number of "superfakes" on our hands that are, for all intents and purposes, identical unless one checks photographic records side-by-side for already certified examples and check for cosmetic differences. They'll be made from laser-scanned and machined dies, alloy to spec, and placed in slabs made from the exact same machinery as the ones used by TPGs. As the technology gets better and cheaper, the price of production for such things is no longer prohibitive.

Granted, these won't be mass-mass produced by the millions like the cheap fakes (the cheap fakes will always be easier to crank out in bulk for a good profit), but we're looking at a number in the tens to perhaps a few hundreds of thousands a year that will sell initially for a few hundred dollars a piece to be re-sold to a victim for a few thousand.
Edited by SteveCaruso
01/19/2015 5:20 pm
Valued Member
KevinH's Avatar
United States
172 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  5:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KevinH to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Steve,


Wow. Thanks for the info and hard work.

This looks like it will be an "arms race" between the Chinese counterfeiters and the TPGs with the rest of us caught in the middle.

How long until we have TPGs grading TPGs that grade TPGs? And then a value-added TPG grading the TPGs that grade the ..... ugh.

One final question which has bugged me for months, if you have the time to answer it:

WHY are Trade dollars traditionally the biggest target of counterfeiters historically, and does this still apply in the age of Chinese super-good fakers that you outlined above? Is it still the case that one must assume that every TD is a fake? And if so, what are the other most targeted coins? Gold maybe?
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  5:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hehe with Trade dollars I believe it was a matter of familiarity. They were made to circulate in the Orient to begin with, and it was relatively common for them to be originally "counterfeited" -- provided they had the same weight and fineness, because otherwise it would be fraud (not that it stopped some people). :-)

Out of all of the counterfeits out there, Trade dollars are grossly over-represented.

After that, presently the biggest demographic of fakes circulating are other faux silver dollars (with bullion value as the target).
Valued Member
KevinH's Avatar
United States
172 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  6:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KevinH to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That makes sense historically, Steve.

The Trade dollars were, after all, simply a bullion coin with a bit more weight that the "regular" dollar to put it in the same camp as the Mexican silver dollars.

So, what you are saying is that the most "common" Chi-Com fakes now are silver bullion coins? So we need to look out for our silver eagles and Maple Leafs?

Or are you talking about fake Morgans mostly?

Or are they targeting rare numismatic coins more? Obviously, their "new: thing is faking the PCGS holders, right?

Thanks once again for all your hard work and research.

Kevin
Edited by KevinH
01/19/2015 6:16 pm
Valued Member
KevinH's Avatar
United States
172 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KevinH to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
They'll be made from laser-scanned and machined dies, alloy to spec, and placed in slabs made from the exact same machinery as the ones used by TPGs


This leads to the obvious next question: do PCGS and NGC make their slabs in plants in China? . I have a sickening feeling that they do. Because if they do they have only themselves to blame for the crap-storm that is about to hit them if your predictions are correct.
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2015  11:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So, what you are saying is that the most "common" Chi-Com fakes now are silver bullion coins? So we need to look out for our silver eagles and Maple Leafs?

Or are you talking about fake Morgans mostly?

Or are they targeting rare numismatic coins more? Obviously, their "new: thing is faking the PCGS holders, right?


Fake Silver Eagles are becoming more common (and the "good ones" are scary as they're thick silver plate over pure copper, so they feel the part) but they're not as common as fake Morgans which are ubiquitous, and Seated Liberties. Peace dollars and Gold Eagles are less common, but out there, too. (The scary Gold Eagles are thick gold plate over *tungsten*.)

The latest trend with the fake slabs are aimed at quasi-rarities and "higher grade" coins in the range of a couple thousand dollars if they were genuine.


Quote:
This leads to the obvious next question: do PCGS and NGC make their slabs in plants in China?


*That* I am unsure of, but if they are made in China the time bomb is ticking. :-) I remember something, though, about claims of being made in the US, but if pressed I would not be able to readily locate it.
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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2015  10:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Alrighty, I'm now in a position to "Throw The Switch" on this feature. But I am still unsure about tier limits and pricing.

Right now it's sitting upon a "Standard" tier for roughly $4 a month ($50 yearly subscription) with a 50 coin limit and a "Pro" tier for roughly $17 a month ($200 yearly subscription) with no limit.

Should I level the field with a middle price and have only one unlimited tier? Should I change the lower tier limit?

What do you guys think?
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