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If You Found A History-Making Hoard

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DouglasFir's Avatar
Canada
160 Posts
 Posted 03/23/2015  9:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DouglasFir to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd auction a few at a time every few years. Keeping the best coins for myself. I don't and would not want any extra attention.
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jfransch's Avatar
United States
1801 Posts
 Posted 03/23/2015  9:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting topic. I would keep the info to myself for a while and sell off the coins very slowly over time to try not to disrupt the market. Anyone wanting to explore this more, read up on the finding of the 1903 O dollars that started to appear in the great treasury hoard sell off. Most expensive, rarest Morgan in the Red Book prior to about 1965 when it became known that several bags of 1000 mint state coins had come out of the treasury hoard. Interesting history of an actual event.
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Joe2007's Avatar
United States
3843 Posts
 Posted 03/23/2015  10:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Joe2007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe that in some instances you have to pay taxes on the appraised value of your find within a few years of discovery so that might force your hand a bit to sell quickly. That was the case with the Saddle Ridge Hoard, they had to liquidate some before their tax liability came due.

Personally I'd keep the top 20-30% of the hoard and then sell the rest.
Edited by Joe2007
03/23/2015 10:12 pm
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Finn235's Avatar
United States
6130 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2015  01:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Going back to Saddle Ridge... what was the impact to the non-hoard coins? I know that more than a few stole the title of "finest known" from heartbroken collectors across the nation. That's what made me wonder what the best course of action would be from a business perspective. The lesser of the coins would hurt the top specimens, but the size would help secure a buyer for coins that would otherwise be hard to move.

I think a good example would be the Sac dollar. Two major varieties exist--the Cheerios dollar at 5.5k mintage, and the Goodacre dollar at 5k mintage. All Goodacre dollars are slabbed and accounted for, and about 60% are on the market; certified specimens trade hands for $200-500. Only <100 Cheerios dollars are known, and they sell for $4,500-34,500. It's reasonable to suppose that if you were to find a solid box of Cheerios dollars, that revelation would bring your $35k coin crashing down to a measly $300 as soon as word got out. That's why I'm thinking that except for a few scenarios, the best bet is to seed them into the market slowly and quietly, taking a slight loss on each subsequent transaction rather than bringing the market crashing down all at once.
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2015  07:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would announce the entirety of the hoard in order to establish its legitimacy. Then I will sell them off over a period of time.
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2015  07:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Finn, are you talking about a hoard of a previously-unknown issue or a hoard of just rare and expensive coins. I got the gist that I was the first one, but my answer would be different if it was the seecond one.
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
188727 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2015  12:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Going to stick with my gut here... Auction a few at a time every few years.

I would not announce the hoard. Doing so will kill the value of those who have theirs now. I therefore prefer to live off the gradual sales until someone realizes I have been trickling them into the system for years.

At least that is what my gut says.

To be honest, I have to actually be in the position to give it serious thought. Good discussion though.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2015  12:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I hadn't thought about the "protecting others' value" angle. Sure makes it easier to be greedy when you can hang an altruistic reason on it.
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Darth Morgan's Avatar
United States
2815 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2015  12:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Darth Morgan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If I found 10 $1000 bags of 1895 business strike Morgans, well, I would have to recover from the heart attack that would result. Now, I would be so happy to have found them that I would want to share this happiness with the rest of the world. I would want as many people to have them as possible. I would want the average collector to be able to obtain one too. In this case I would have to sell some on the cheap. I know that I would offer one here on the forum for free in a name drawing. THAT would be fun!
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United States
937 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2015  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tryna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I thought that the IRS could not tax sales of US coinage.

Anyone care to explain?


@The Silver searcher

The IRS does not tax the sale of anything. The IRS taxes income and profit.

Since the hoard was found, not purchased it falls under a special provision like 'Windfall' ( I cannot remember what the provision is called at the monmoent) So it gets taxed higher than normal income. As the couple had no investment in the hoard the IRS can claim all proceeds as profit.

The hoard was said to be worth in the neighborhood of ten million so something around 40% would be the tax bill due in the year it was found.

If you are enhancing or reducing a collection you are given some room to wiggle tax wise. So if you do not run to the press screaming "Look what I found!" you do not get hit with a giant tax bill all at once.

When you are assesed with the "found treasure" you owe the tax that year if you sell it or not.

So if I had found it on my land while walking my dog you would all be saying 'What are you on about? I never heard of a Saddle Ridge hoarde."
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garys64wildcat's Avatar
United States
593 Posts
 Posted 03/24/2015  4:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add garys64wildcat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I remember the 1903-dollars the govt released and the folks that owned any took the big drop in price. I almost bought one after the release but glad I didn't.
I don't think its fair like the guy in UK that found a hoard in his pasture then never heard much about it after that.

Or the treasure ships that sank in 1500`s and the country who had the ship registered then, claimed the loot. They may get a small thank you if lucky

If you ever luck out and find a hoard Don't Brag about it and Keep it to yourself. As hard as that is not to say a word. Just give me the chance. Please

A good friend and neighbor is a IRS Mgr and I wouldn't tell him
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Finn235's Avatar
United States
6130 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2015  12:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd be curious how far you would be able to get with claiming a hoard of US coins at face value. Technically, any government-issued coin since 1793 (or 1787?) is legal tender and always will be. Technically, the Saddle Ridge Hoard could have been deposited at a bank at their $27,980 face value, and the owners would not have been able to sue said bank for theft of the $9,972,020 difference between "real" and face value.

Clearly, I would expect to get hit out the wazoo for taxes when I sold the coins, but I would much rather pay the taxes for keeping $28k worth of coins than $10M.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16832 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2015  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To those who are saying or thinking "Well, I wouldn't tell anybody about it at all, just sell them off as secretly as possible", I'd point out the OP's question is about a "history-making hoard". If you disperse it quietly, it's hardly going to ever be "history-making", is it? No-one will ever know. I would assume, from the OP's question, that word of the discovery has gotten out, regardless of how secretive you might have wished to be.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 03/26/2015  04:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In the light of Sap's comments,
it may well seem that the finder could have to run the gauntlet of spurious and dishonest claims for decades, all to the increase of legal fees.

It depends on how much continuous stress you may wish to call upon yourself.
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
188727 Posts
 Posted 03/26/2015  11:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
To those who are saying or thinking "Well, I wouldn't tell anybody about it at all, just sell them off as secretly as possible", I'd point out the OP's question is about a "history-making hoard". If you disperse it quietly, it's hardly going to ever be "history-making", is it? No-one will ever know. I would assume, from the OP's question, that word of the discovery has gotten out, regardless of how secretive you might have wished to be.
Perhaps I will just change the title so that the hoard's description is hypothetical rather than factual... "If you found a potentially history-making hoard"
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