Cleaned Or Not Cleaned ?

With these coins,

lambecolin - 90%? That seems like a harsh number. How do you figure that? I do get too many cleaned foreign coins, just rejected a British shilling yesterday. Harshly buffed. How can you and others tell that these are cleaned from the pics?

So Swamper,although you really did'nt answer the question directly you make a good point,and one that I generally agree with.
Why should cleaning a coin have such a negative impact on its value? Almost everything else that is sold is at one time cleaned.be it a new product or used. Even the great masterpieces in museums are cleaned.
Now,altering,repairing or "shining" a coin? no, should'nt happen.Taking a little grime or dirt off ? Should not be a issue
The responses before you, I agree. I think three have been cleaned.

None of the coins above are silver, the French one is aluminum, while the Belgian ones are nickle. So no toning should be there.
From those pics I could see no evidence of cleaning. But to tell for sure you would have to see them in person.

Correction, the French one is also nickle.

Canacoins Based on the coins that I have personally observe that have been labeled as being "cleaned" by the TPGs; I am stating that wear is in many cases not properly distinguished from minimal cleaning in their view.

I have also observed dozens of coins that I know were doctored and/or cleaned that have received MS grades.

It is the TPG criteria that is WRONG.

They treat all parallel fine hairline scratches as if they were caused by cleaning while they miss actual acid cleaned coins all the time. They also miss oil aged treatments that re-tone coins especially copper so they will grade.

In the case of PCGS in particular they take normal wear and call it cleaning in far too many cases. It is like they are little dictators or small minded cops like Barney Fife who sit there enforcing the rules. Even when they alone make the rules. They are like petty bureaucrats that issue licenses puffed upo with their own power and doing no one any real good.

How do you prove that or even dispute that. They take beautiful coins and label then cleaned destroying value. You can resubmit at an extra cost and often the second or third submission gets by. This is a racket people. Wake up and follow the dollars.

How does a Fine or low grade VF coin warrant a label "cleaned"? The surfaces are all impared by wear or cleaning. So just say it is a F or VF coin. There are no original surfaces so unless the surface has damage that rises to the level of scratches what is the difference?

The allowance made for pre-strike planchet defects like file marks (adjustment marks) are a more serious defect in eye appeal that most well done cleaning. I object to the use of the Sheldon method of grading dependent on surface preservation and to the loss of EYE appeal as a grading standard.

That is the problem with this ONEROUS system. The only coins that should be labeled as cleaned are the IMPROPERLY cleaned examples with OBVIOUS IMPAIRMENT OF LUSTER or deep scratches. I am saying the rules now in place are WRONG.

Eye appeal is worth far more than the stupidity that PCGS has foisted off on collectors. A beautiful EF or AU coin evenly toned is a far more beautiful coin than an MS 60 piece of junk that is bag marked to death with bad streaky toning. The 70 point scale does not say so and who has ever seen a pricing guideline that reflects my point of view.

We need to junk the present system of grading. The best way is to refuse to purchase this junk and to crack out all coins we own.

Release the prisoners from their plastic coffins.

The coins don't look cleaned to me, just nice collectible specimens. Good luck with your sale. Don't expect much, though.

I couldn't agree with Bob more. The entire MS60-70 system needs scrapped and replaced with three grades, UNC, UNC-BU, and Gem BU. I'm sick of walking into shops and seeing coins in holders labeled MS63+ and MS65, with no TPD grading, just the dealers sayso, all priced accordingly, of course. I'm no grading expert, but seems to be a lot of MS60 and MS61 coins being touted as three or four grades higher. Not to mention the AU-58s that seem to have never seen circulation.

If you lament young people being absent from collecting coins, the grading system and market is a big reason for their absence, it's not just the video games and smartphones.

The only coffin I ever cracked was on an AG3 half eagle I wanted to use for a pocket coin.

Cleaning coins didn't matter much until slabbing started. They were just coins that people had used or abused, which got shoved into Whitman folders by grimy fingers. In the less coin-centric, slab-happy parts of the planet cleaning doesn't matter. For these coins I don't think it matters at all. They're not worth enough to justify slabbing.