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Time Handling Vs. Grade

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Paulsz's Avatar
Canada
2187 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  12:44 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Paulsz to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Just a random thought:

When I started collecting coins, I started on the lower end (Large cents in VG-EF grades). At first, I loved the history behind it, and the number of hands it's been through. But I never got around to thinking about the amount of time a coin has been handled for it to get into that VG8 or EF40 stage.

So I was wondering, has one done studies, or does anyone have an idea of the time it takes for a coin to get into such state? Would a penny from 1920, if handled as frequently as other change, be in VG8 today? Did a coin in EF40 from the same year have to be preserved for more than half of it's life to remain in that state?

Just a thought, and was wondering if anyone could provide any info they might have.

Much appreciated,

Paul

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bpoc1's Avatar
United States
4078 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  3:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Paulsz, great questions. Lets see what the CCF members know.
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matthewvincent's Avatar
United States
3486 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've wondered the same thing.
If a circulating gold coin, the 'hands' were most likely washed, but if a copper
or a low face value silver coin the hands would have belonged to manual laborers.
Traces of coal dust, machine oil, street dirt and who knows what would be
imparted to the surface of coins.
Often members have suggested that a 'cleaned' or otherwise
mistreated coin be used as a pocket piece to lower the grade
but restore a natural surface.
Does anyone have definitive data?

The question that I have is:
"What mechanical process could be used to best duplicate
natural circulation?"
Edited by matthewvincent
03/31/2015 3:46 pm
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SHAFTA9a's Avatar
Canada
10743 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  3:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SHAFTA9a to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well.. if you're talking about the 1920 large cent, I would think that being the last year that you probably wouldn't find too many in VG condition, the ones I have always seen have been mostly Ef-MS
Being that they didn't circulate that much.

The other large cents were used for lots of commerse so I would think that's why you can find them in any condition.
Not sure Paul if that answered your question or not..
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kuh_85's Avatar
Canada
2366 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kuh_85 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
"What mechanical process could be used to best duplicate
natural circulation?"


I believe there was previous thread discussing using a rock tumbler for this purpose.
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Paulsz's Avatar
Canada
2187 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Paulsz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
lol thank you SHAFTA9a, but I meant in general, how long would it take for something to wear down that much
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matthewvincent's Avatar
United States
3486 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  4:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SHAFTA9a raises the question:
"Were certain dates removed from circulation for a reason?"
Assume: The first and last dates of a series were removed, not only by collectors,
but by the non-collecting population as well.
If human nature is the same on both sides of border, the last decade of Canadian Large cents corresponds to the last decade of US Indian Head cents. More exist in higher grades, as well as lower grades, than previous years.

But the question remains, how long does unrestricted circulation take to make an EF coin a VG coin?
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bpoc1's Avatar
United States
4078 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  4:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Matt,
Quote:
The question that I have is:
"What mechanical process could be used to best duplicate
natural circulation?"

Not sure if this question should be addressed here.The OP is not asking this. I believe.
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matthewvincent's Avatar
United States
3486 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
bpoc1,
I suggest that without a scientific test the only answer would be speculation.
Non-scientifically, the answer can only be speculation.
One reasonable 'guess' is this:
I collect the Barber series (1892-1916) which consist of dimes and quarters and halves. It is common knowledge that the condition of surviving examples is roughly in proportion to the purchasing power or each. A dime may lay forgotten in a house but a half? It was real money!
In 1920, and later during the Great Depression of the 1930s,
coins were spent. And spent.
Today, coins are dropped into a jar and brought to a bank to be dropped into a counting machine.
If a definitive answer is not to be had then all we can do
is speculate.
But I'd really like someone to come forward with an answer.


Edited by matthewvincent
03/31/2015 5:37 pm
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Canada
5585 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  6:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since about 80% or more of the Canadian population lives within 50 miles of the US border, I don't think that large cents, in that neck of the wood, circulated much after 1920 because or both the US and Canadian small cents(US small cents since the 1880's). I would think that the Maritimes and Northern-more towns saw them circulate much more. for longer. For me, as a large cent collector, the 1876's are the most worn with lots in the AG-VG8 range. The 59's you see lots of worn ones but many high grade because they didn't like them and many hoarded.
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kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  7:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Scientifically, you might evaluate all the circumstances involved in circulation that involve wear on a coin, and then attempt to duplicate that in a controlled environment. If the original question is "the time it takes for a coin to get into such state", you would have to establish some parameters on how much time a coin in the real world experiences those wear conditions versus what you do to it in the lab, then extrapolate.

Conceivably you could come up with some kind of "standard" for "the time it takes" under normal circulating conditions for various grades, but, just thinking out loud, it would be so wildly variable in the real world as to become meaningless. As mathewvincent says, it depends on the denomination and the economic conditions at various times - how do you account for that? Look at the conditional rarity of 1930s era nickels in Canada. Today, the coins I receive don't circulate much - the times I spend cash, the change comes home and sits in a jar for a year or two, then goes to the bank and gets converted to bills. In modern Canada, perhaps look to the dollar and two dollar coins for real world circulation?

It's a timely topic, because in the past month here in the US I got a 1964 silver quarter in change. It was barely circulated. Obviously it sat somewhere for a long time, then somehow re-entered circulation. Only a week or two later, I got a 1965 clad quarter in change. That one has been spent constantly for 50 years. So many variables in this equation...
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matthewvincent's Avatar
United States
3486 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  8:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
2015 minus 1965 = ARGH! 50 years?
No wonder everything aches. I'm older than I thought.
I remember when the silver coins were discontinued.

If there is a forum for semi-senile collectors will somebody please gently walk me to it? Oh, and speak softly as we older folks frighten easily.

Did my 1944 steel nickel come back with mom from a trip to Canada survive better than those which remained to serve the population? (I have always wondered why it looks so bright and shiny.)

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Paulsz's Avatar
Canada
2187 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  9:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Paulsz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Conceivably you could come up with some kind of "standard" for "the time it takes" under normal circulating conditions for various grades, but, just thinking out loud, it would be so wildly variable in the real world as to become meaningless.


you're right, I was too general with the topic :S

But now I feel like experimenting. Once I get a nice new 2015 quarter in my change, i'll keep it as a pocket piece and see how far I can take it. If I remember, i'll try and post pictures



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