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 Replies: 22 / Views: 2,279 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1267 Posts |
Greetings and Happy ThanksGiving wishes to all those who observe the holiday, and a hearty "Hello, may the wind be at your back and luck in your pocket" to those who don't. I wanted to broach a topic which has touched each of us at some point in our "Cyber Numismatic Journeys." Since many aspects of the hobby are subjective in nature the differing opinions you receive on any number of topics will usually vary greatly when based solely on simply a photo or two. Unfortunately, these opinions often hurt our feelings when (let's say) the $5.00 Liberty or $10.00 Indian Gold Piece your grandmother left you is not Extra Fine or even real for that matter. Perhaps called a contemporary counterfeit according to one, (not all) of the more learned members of the coin forum you use. A myriad of emotions rush thru your mind, how could this be? The local coin dealer you regularly use gave it a rough grade of XF and even offered to purchase the coin. Why now are some your cyber friends (let's call them cyberies) saying it's counterfeit? These are members who you've listened to and even altered your collecting habits to emulate. The individuals who know coins better than you and are always right even when you don't agree with them...  Now, all of a sudden you feel empty, cheap, and foolish for even posting the topic, especially with pictures. It seems many of the forum members are now piling on and adding their own "ridiculous follow-up" comments which only add insult to injury... However, a couple of members agree with you that the coin is genuine and post their thoughts and reasons, but they are laughed down and drowned out by the forum mob which as developed and who've followed the counterfeit lead. Let's look at the situation carefully. How many of these cyberies have you actually met, talked to on the telephone, or much less even corresponded with? I ask, whose word would you rather believe, the local dealer, your friend or some cyber somebodies who you only recognize by their screen names? You know for a fact the coin has been in your family for generations. As far back as you can remember when visiting your grandparents the coin was always a special, secret treat to see and hold. You'd sit and listen to the stories of yesteryear. Horses, buggies, cowboy badmen, gamblers, six-guns, wooden boardwalks, snow in the tall pines, gold-rushes, dirt roads, and sailing ships are all part of it's rich history to you. The local dealer feels it's real and even offered to purchase it. The date is one of the key dates and in solid extra-fine condition based upon RedBook standards. Now that you have inherited the coin, your plans are to keep it and pass it along to your children or grandchildren along with the wonderful exciting stories of the past. The coin and those stories will enrich generations yet to be born. This coin is part of, no CRITICAL to those stories yet to be told to your future generations. Okay, now where do you stand and what do you do? Personally, I would look elsewhere for numismatic advice and council... Ben |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
I would probably send the coin to a TPG for authentication . This Ben is a senario that repeats itself time and time again ,on just about every coin forum I have ever been on ,, I have had coins graded lower than my opinion and I'm sure I have graded coins lower than the OP's opinion,, and that is the key to the whole thing ,, we ,us ,them ,people on coin forums can offer only opinions based on what info is given , pictures ,description and little else .those opinions should be used to help either by prompting the OP to further explore the coins authenticity or to help with grading to determine a value ,if there are no opinions contrary to the coin being authentic. seeing a coin like you describe in the eye of family history in no way can be seen as authentication ,, counterfeiting was a known art even then . As for myself the type of threads you mention would not hurt my feelings ,, nor would it change my opinion of those who I give respect to for their individual expertise. Happy Thanksgiving ! Metalman |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1231 Posts |
If you trust the local dealer, I would tend to believe the dealer since he has seen the coin in hand. Online everyone can only base an opinion off of photos.
With offering opinions online, people are giving just that an opinion. The person may have a great deal of knowledge about the coin or they may have no clue. I tend to stay away from posting on whether a coin is counterfeit or not because I don't have enough experience with them and not sure I ever will.
I say keep the coin, doesn't matter if it is real or not, the stories and the time with your family are worth more than the coin itself.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2703 Posts |
Authentication and grading based on a photo alone is in large part speculation. It is no substitute for having the coin in hand. Furthermore, the most useful and valuable opinions are those in which the observations are clearly stated and the deductions made from those observations are clearly spelled out. I have found that the most knowledgeable coin people always state their opinions in this way, and always state the limitations of judgements made from photos alone, and refrain from making absolute judgments without seeing the coin in person.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
986 Posts |
Often, it only takes one person who thinks the coin is counterfeit to delude others into thinking it's counterfeit. It seems as though whenever somebody questions the authenticity of a coin, others suddenly see phantom signs of a coin being counterfeit. The best advice I have is to take what is said through online forums with a grain of salt. There is a wealth of knowledge, but also an abundance of unknowledgable people trying to pass themselves off as being the real deal.
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Valued Member
United States
382 Posts |
Trust the local dealer, seek advice at 2 more dealers. Believe what they tell you. All in all the Coin will be of more value to you regardless of condition and monetary value since it is a family heirloom. So keep it and pass it on, family heirlooms are not based on value they are based on sentimental value.
M2c, Tony
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I basically agree with each and everyones opinion in this thread, what we have to go on is at best a good photo and at worst a small photo that you can barely even see the coin in and a description that someone remembers that was told to them as a child (I remember when I was a child everything seemed alot better than it actually was and alot bigger also).
If this person has taken the coin to a dealer that has seen the coin in hand and they think the coin is authentic then I think the more opinions you get the better (just remember I have seen and heard of dealers buying fake coins thinking they were authentic also). If this was a key date coin (as you say) I would definately atleast send it off to ANACS for authentication just for a ease of mind for me and future generations, not to mention for safe keeping of the coin in question so it doesn't get more scratched or anything.
I in no way am a expert in anything but when something just doesn't look quite right I think it is my responsibility to the forum to let my concerns be known and hope every forum member here knows that even different lighting can make a coin look different, just as scans can look totally different than a photo taken by a camera. I have seen coins that look flat and overly dipped with a scan and have the most cartwheel of any coin you have ever seen in a photo or in hand. Grading and authenticating by a photo or description alone should be taken as nothing but a opinion of that one specific person who has taken the time out of their day to respond to your questions and concerns.
In your scenario would it be better for all who had doubts of the authenticity of the coin to just pass by the thread all together because they can't honestly give a description that may not hurt the OP's feelings or should they post their concerns and let the person know why he thinks this? What if every person on the forum thought the same thing and the thread sat here for weeks with no one responding at all, it would probably be this member that puts his coin on this high pedestal who starts complaining because they get no help on this forum and starts to look for another place that will atleast respond to their threads.
We are here to give honest opinions on what we see in the photograph and most of us are collectors just like most of the OP's that post such a thread so we aren't trying to make money off of the deal or even get paid for our descriptions or opinions we are just a group of collectors that may have concerns about a particular coin and sometimes just more information is needed to make a good assessment about the coin like weight,gravity test results or even if the photo accurately represents the coins actual look
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1173 Posts |
To tell the truth...I seldom pay any attention to opinions on grades unless 1 of 2 criteria are met. First, if the opinion comes from a forum member who, in my opinion, is usually right on, or second, if the forum member gives clear, cogent reasons for his/her grade. If a grade or opinion on authenticity is thrown out without supporting reasons, then it's a meaningless post to me.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
936 Posts |
I agree with most everything. What I do not like is when people try to "one up" someone in the threads. Not everyone has the same amount of disposable income as everyone else and one persons treasure may be another's junk. I feel bad when someone post a pic of what they have only to be told that it is worthless or not that great of a coin. I do not see it here as much as in the error, variety forum, that one is ruthless at times. I can understand the "mine is better (bigger)than yours" mentality, we all would like to think that what we have is the best (biggest). I am not blaming just forum members, this hobby is exposed to many types, TV sellers, dishonest dealers, ebay and many other venues that are out to cheat people out of their money. They build up the hype and people buy into it, then come to this forum for reassurance, only to find out what they just spent their "chunk" of money on something that is as common as a cold. What I do like and enjoy with the forums is I can post a pic of something and others actually enjoy looking at it, unlike friends and family who mostly could care less. If we are supposed to give a little advise in this thread this is mine- stop for a second and think back on your early collecting experiences and if you are anything like myself, have been ripped off or bought into some hype, post a reply with a little bit tact. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2884 Posts |
When I solicit advice on a coin I hope for a variety of opinions and most importantly an explanation of the opinion stated. There are many facets to what makes a coin what it is. Remember, with coins as for many things in life, beauty is often truly in the eye of the beholder. I appreciate the diversity of opinions. I also do not criticize a poster for modifying their opinion after having aspects of the coin pointed out that he/she may have been missed when stating their original opinion. I think honesty, tempered by respect is the key to giving and receiving opinions. Mike  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2443 Posts |
Well, I would have to factor in everyone's opinion including the dealers. Dealers make mistakes too. Then I would take it to a few other coin shops and get their opinions. If they all agree that it's real, then it's real. People make mistakes too. I would also factor in that some people on the internet just agree with what everyone else is saying. Then if it was really bugging me, I would send it out to ANACS, ICG, or SEGS since you don't need to be a member to send in stuff. But honestly does it matter if the coin is real or not? It's a family heirloom and it should be passed down whether it's fake or not.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2764 Posts |
I read Ben thread, and few more responds.... and in general this is what I think: First of all, I only take in responds with reasonings/explanations/qualifications/references. If someone said my coin is fake/junk in one sentence.... then that's a worthless comment, it's more like an opinion from a careless person. However, I will pay attention to comments that are more than just a few lines, those with explanations/references to justify the poster's comments. Those who followed the first comment, without further explanation; I will take those with an extra grain of salt. Second, I only trust/believe in comments that are logical, not just opinion/feeling comments. There are case that people said "I feel that the coin is not right, but don't know why or how to explain".... I may consider such comment as a helpful input. However, if some one say "I think the coin is fake/not right...etc; then I'll just pass by it without even think about it. Lastly, like everyone else said: Comments on forum are opinion based on what the poster known (his/her knowledge of the subject - ie: his or her background in that field; and what information was given to him/her). Seeking TPG opinion grading is probably the last resort that I will use to validate the coin! If there's a coin show, you can bring it there to solicited some opinions from those experts in the field. I think there are some very dedicated members (who I think they are the core of this forum) who spend a lot of time and effort to share their knowledge in the matter; and there are people who are just "here to be here" and to benefit from the forum; and there are people who are here to take advantage of others or for personal "self gain" (*** Benefit from the forum is not necessarily a negative thing; however, take advantage of others... is NOT GOOD). I believe every organizations has the same type three types of people - the same kind of problem. These are just my thought and thinking, I am sorry if I sounded so harsh, but it's just my opinion, after all.... and I make no representation and/or accusation of anyone! Happy Thanksgiving, Bruce Edited by SA4H
11/22/2007 9:24 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
Ben,
This forum, others like it, and the myriad of other on-line resources are just tools in your toolbox. I enjoy reading the opinions of others and realize they are only that, "opinions". I find that I get additional perspective about the "coin in question" or "topic du jour", but ultimately, the responsibility for sorting it all out and coming to "my truth" is up to me. I have come to respect several forum members and value their opinions/comments more than others who appear to shoot from the hip. If I disagree with these experts, I find myself researching more and expanding my knowledge in the process ... a definite win/win!
One thing you can't do on any on-line forum is wear your heart on your sleeve. Ben, you're one of those I respect here and if you were talking about a personal experience, I would hate to lose your input.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
Anyone who has online experience has to develop a different quality of intellectual 'skin.' You have to selectively thicken it as well as make it semi-permeable. No matter where you go for information online you're going to be assaulted with so much input that you've got to learn how to be a discerning end-user.
It saddens me when people post pics of counterfeits for evaluation, whether they paid a lot or a little. There are times when I don't want to be the first one to tell someone their coin is fake. I don't like to be too nit-picky on coins I know less about, for example, I am horrible at grading 3 cent nickels, so I try to always mention that fact.
I take most seriously those posts that are detailed and show a level of sensitivity to the person, their coin, and their apparent numismatic experience.
One thing that turns me off immediately is when 'experts' (either self-described or generally acknowleged) give short answers and call a coin worthless or without premium value. I find this mostly in the discussions of cents in the error forum.
Another thing I am wondering about your post is whether it references a specific experience or topic.
Good food for thought.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1267 Posts |
quote:
Ben,
This forum, others like it, and the myriad of other on-line resources are just tools in your toolbox. I enjoy reading the opinions of others and realize they are only that, "opinions". I find that I get additional perspective about the "coin in question" or "topic du jour", but ultimately, the responsibility for sorting it all out and coming to "my truth" is up to me. I have come to respect several forum members and value their opinions/comments more than others who appear to shoot from the hip. If I disagree with these experts, I find myself researching more and expanding my knowledge in the process ... a definite win/win!
One thing you can't do on any on-line forum is wear your heart on your sleeve. Ben, you're one of those I respect here and if you were talking about a personal experience, I would hate to lose your input.
Chuckle, no, this is a semi-hypothetical question based upon an incident which transpired on another forum a few weeks ago. The individual in question (who shall remain nameless) e-mailed me their frustration and comments with the thread which developed. Take Care Ben |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
The dealer has a big advantage in determining authenticity, he can see it in person and not just a photo.
As for it having been in the family for generations, so what. I've seen a lot of counterfeits that have "been in the family for generations" They didn't just start making them last week.
And so what if it did turn out to be a contemporary counterfeit. That doesn't lessen any of the "stories of yesteryear. Horses, buggies, cowboy badmen, gamblers, six-guns, wooden boardwalks, snow in the tall pines, gold-rushes, dirt roads, and sailing ships are all part of it's rich history to you." because if it was a contemporary counterfiet it participated in all of those things as well, plus it has more stories of intrique and shadowy characters.
You say it's a rare date but so what, you're not planning on selling it, so it doesn't matter if it is rare or common. (Personally I would rather it be a common.) Send it in for authenticating? Why? Once again you're not going to sell it, so why waste the money on slabbing postage and insurance? You want it in a protective holder? Fine, you can buy a nice protective generic slab shell for about a dollar and protect it yourself. But that is why I would rather it have been a common piece, so you would feel comfortable actually handling the coina and making a physical connection with all of those past generations that have held and thought about this coin and then passed it along to the next generation. This was grandmothers coins and you should enjoy holding it, like grandmother did.
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Replies: 22 / Views: 2,279 |
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Posted 11/22/2007 10:43 am
