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1921-P Baffled... Help On This VAM!

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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2015  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We're already doing just that, Chute72, and we're trying to break it down to individual die pairs through the entire series. To my mind, "traditional" VAMming is dead wrong. Even if it isn't possible you gotta try. People are "adopting" individual issues.
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srs77's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2015  10:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add srs77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After looking much closer at it what you are seeing is indeed MD. No doubling.... It appears to be a small indentation at the top of the one and the lighting just enhanced it.
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Chute72's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2015  10:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


1921-P-Baffled...--Help-On-This-VAM!
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Chute72's Avatar
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 Posted 04/14/2015  11:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I made it through the 16 berry listings that did not mention scribble scratches. This leaves 17 berry, in the event of a miscatagorization and scribble scratches in the event that this is just a worn die. I will say that some of the descriptions were so vague that a determination could not be made either way.



1921-P-Baffled...--Help-On-This-VAM!
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/14/2015  12:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I made it through the 16 berry listings that did not mention scribble scratches. This leaves 17 berry, in the event of a miscatagorization and scribble scratches in the event that this is just a worn die. I will say that some of the descriptions were so vague that a determination could not be made either way.


Your last sentence is the crux of the problem. It's almost certain the OP's coin is a known VAM; there's just not enough detail published to be sure and he'd have to run into someone with a verified example just like his.

Not much use working the 17-berry reverses. This is a D2, 16 berry reverse. If you do, what you're looking for is an obverse match, and maybe a previously-unknown die pairing of that die and a D2. If you have the time and inclination, though, it'd be a service to this coin and VAMming in general to do it.
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Chute72's Avatar
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 Posted 04/15/2015  06:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
At the VAMworld pages for the 1921 varieties, VAM86 is clearly a 17 berry reverse and even says so in the comments. Yet it is listed with the 16 berry reverses. So I reason our target could also be misplaced.
I realize that when this study was in its infancy, it did not take a lot of information to differentiate between a Hot Lips and a Donkey Tail, but things have changed. I know that some would think I always include too many photographs, but it is easier to delete than go back and find a coin that hasn't been seen for 10 years. With the cheap and readily available digital cameras, it's better to include a picture with the description of a scribble scratch. I've killed/revised VAMs that were seriously short of pictures. That problem is easy to avoid.

It's almost certain the OP's coin is a known VAM; there's just not enough detail published to be sure and he'd have to run into someone with a verified example just like his.

The obvious solution to this problem is to send it to JB at VSS and let him determine what VAM it is. I don't know how he would make the determination, but at least we would have a designation and be able to add definitive pictures to the VAM page.
Then, in 5 years when some one says, "Hey, I have the discovery coin, and it doesn't look anything like that," we can quote, "multiple die pairs," or resubmit for a revision.
It may not be the ideal solution, and is a lot like kicking the can down the road, but would give others an opportunity to attribute their coins.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/15/2015  08:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sharp thinking, Chute. You've hit on one of the reasons why it infuriates me that they chose a Wiki format for a database of such singular importance. It's baffling why you'd give everyone editing access to the formal database of Morgan varieties.

John has a store of knowledge in his head that very few can match with Morgans, but his advantage is more about having sufficient magnification to see the minute doubling which will probably attribute this coin and the experience to know what to do with the information. I suspect he has a pretty sizable database of his own as well.

And you can't edit it.
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Chute72's Avatar
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 Posted 04/15/2015  08:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll look a little longer then we'll make a decision.
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srs77's Avatar
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 Posted 04/15/2015  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add srs77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks guys.. I've been digging here to with not much luck. Who is JB and what is VSS? Sorry for my ignorance, or it could just be my age and forgetfulness... 8)
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/15/2015  1:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's messydesk's Variety Slabbing Service for Morgan varieties. Varslab.com.
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srs77's Avatar
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 Posted 04/15/2015  2:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add srs77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks SsuperDdave.. maybe that' the way to go with this one. I'm at a loss and have been banging my head against the wall for a few days now. Truly an interesting coin to say the least and probably the biggest challenge I've had in trying to attribute a coin.
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Cascade's Avatar
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 Posted 04/15/2015  3:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When I keep banging my head with a VAM messydesk always has the medicine
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Chute72's Avatar
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 Posted 04/16/2015  09:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My strongest guess is VAM 3DR, scribble scratches#79.
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srs77's Avatar
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 Posted 04/16/2015  5:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add srs77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok Chute72.... I got home from work and thought, at my age, it might be a case where I'm just not seeing the scribble scratches so I sat down, got my loupe in some outside lighting and yep, indeed there is scribble scratches. I started with the VAM you attribute it to and there does appear to be scribble scratches in those locations except the ear. But they could be so shallow that I'm just not seeing them. So I think this might open pandora's box as all scribble scratches might be back in play.. Yikes! I don't believe I can pick these up in pictures but this weekend I will try. So it's off to decoding again... Thanks!
Edited by srs77
04/16/2015 5:48 pm
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Chute72's Avatar
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 Posted 04/16/2015  5:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chute72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On closer inspection, I don't think it is 3DR, but I may get to the camera in about 12 hours, and if I can pick up any points, I'll share.
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