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Replies: 14 / Views: 1,902 |
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Valued Member
United States
68 Posts |
Editor Steve Roach shouldn't call his monthly message "The Investment Column." It suggests that coins should be purchased for investment purposes.
That's misleading, and likely to lead the inexperienced into investments that will disappoint them. Coins should be purchased as a hobby, for the pleasure of ownership. "Investing" in coins is not like investing in stocks or bonds, because there's a big hurdle you have to get over just to break even.
The reasons are well known. A dealer will sell you a coin for $100 today, but if you try to sell it back to them tomorrow, they will pay you significantly less than $100. Dealers sell coins at a premium over wholesale, designed to cover their costs and provide a profit. That means your coins have to appreciate substantially over time just to break even, and even more to provide a return that's competitive with other investments. That's a tough way to go for an investor. The bid/ask spread is very high.
If Roach is going to write an "investment" column, that's the message he ought to be delivering.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
604 Posts |
I didn't read the column but I consider everything I buy an investment from coins to toilet paper and each has a return in its own way. As for investing in coins to get a return in money, I think you hit the nail on the head.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Fortunately, coins are retailed when liquidating in today's world, not wholesaled. Anyone who chooses to liquidate by selling to a dealer should follow your advice closely, because they've only got half the concept of "investing" down.
Every single person here who tries to pay the best price for a coin is using investment value as a high priority. Why, else, would you care what you pay?
And if your average coin purchase is closer to $1000 than $100, you'd be a fool not to consider investment value. I wonder what audience he's writing for? Heritage has managed to sell over 100,000 Double Eagles without me and a plurality of numismatists ever getting involved; there's gotta be some money out there somewhere and those folks didn't get that money by ignoring where they spent it.
For every argument against, there is an equal argument for. The possibilities are as broad as are our individual interests as collectors. The only sin is generalizing.
Now, expecting some predetermined rate of return is kinda silly too. If it were money just to park - if you chose a definition of "investing" which did not require guaranteed return, only a solid hedge against depreciation - you could do far worse than intelligent rare coin buying. If you're gonna sell stuff, sell the stuff that the recession-proof folks want. Many of them want rare coins, as proven by those 100,000 Double Eagles.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5393 Posts |
Double eagles..........rare coins ,hardly. I will guarantee those 100000 pieces were bought by individuals playing the semi numismatic hedge. In other words so called speculators/investors. If a person is going to invest in NUMISMATIC coins for a long term gain, best have two things on hand loads of cash and LOTS of time. OP nailed it. Collect coins for the enjoyment of a great hobby and invest elsewhere. Not one person in a thousand will ever really profit from their coin collection. This is for many reasons, which include never really educating THEMSELVES and becoming a smart numismatist.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
Coin collecting or numismatics (= the research and study of coins) should be for fun, for hobby, for personal interest or for the expansion of coin knowledge. There are better investments to be had than investing in coins at any level.
Having said all of that, profits can be made in the buying and selling of coins WELL, over the long term (decades).
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Buying well and selling well is the secret to profits to be made in coin collecting. One of the most effective multipliers to buying well and selling well is to open your mind to the whole of numismatics, so that bargains at the time of purchase are much easier to find.
Don't just collect a particular series, or coins of a particular country or theme. It takes time and experience but learn all you can about the whole of numismatics, ancient to modern, but it is well worth the effort. The collateral is that you will learn about cultures and history of all parts of the World from ancient to modern times.
You will be more easily able to find the bargains at the time of purchase, and to sell them decades later to the right buyers.
The investment performance of numismatic items in the long term may not be as strong as the investment performance in shocks and scares (stocks and shares), real estate or bonds, but it can be far more satisfying.
Edited by sel_69l 05/07/2015 8:26 pm
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Valued Member
United States
194 Posts |
Pacificoin, I have to respectfully disagree. Many, many people profit from coin collections. I'm young, and plan to sell my collection if need be for retirement. While possible, I can't imagine my collection not significantly appreciating in 25+ years. In addition, the collection I inherited from my grandfather was just "junk" he found interesting and removed from circulation. It was worth quite a but when it was passed on to me.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
535 Posts |
If you purchased a $1000 coin and put $1000 into a retirement savings, which would have a higher cash value after 30 years. I would put the money in the retirement savings and let compound interest do its thing.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
All averages assumed, all over 30 years: inflation rate 2.5% capital growth in coin investment 3.5% capital growth of retirement savings invested into mix of property, shares and bonds 4.5%
After 30 years, net real growth in value of $1,000 added on to original investment: inflation: nil, coins: $1806, retirement savings: $2,745.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
It's a small, simple step to disabuse yourself of some inevitable connection between "investment" and "profit." Apparently a pretty tough one, too.
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Valued Member
United States
156 Posts |
Assuming a rate of return on coins is dangerous. I think coins can be a worthy investment if you know what you are doing. That is key. How many people have dabbled in the stock market only to lose everything? Plenty of them. Over a 20-30 period (sometimes less) the growth value in coin can be incredible. But again, you have to choose wisely, just like in stocks or any other kind of investment.
Just pouring your money into old coins is a fool's errand, as is pouring money into dotcom stocks that enever turned a profit form their inception. Many people did so and lost their shirt later.
An intelligent buyer of anything of value can make a handsome profit.
As for myself, I'm a collector first. I'm not an investor, but I could be motivated to become both over time.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote: While possible, I can't imagine my collection not significantly appreciating in 25+ years. It might significantly appreciate, but if it doesn't do so at a greater rate than inflation then it is in real terms a net loss. And most average collections don't. Even some of the major collections that make big headlines over the huge sums they sold for, when tracked as a return on investment over time aren't all that spectacular.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
The assumed rate of return on coins is based on my own experience and the buy and sell prices of a range of coins in my collection over a 30 year period. (1980-2010) The retirement savings funds info. come from printed material from average of a wide range of investment categories over the same period.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Nothing really wrong with assuming coins are an investment. Some people use old cars as an investment. Some save stamps, guns, knives, old coins, old furniture, etc. Many collectables as an investment never works well. Many do fantastic. You just never know. Look at a 57 Chevy auto. A few thousand when new is now worth logs and lots. Look at Beanie Babies. Once when new in the hundreds each and now most are selling for a dollar. With any collectable items it's just a chance. So if someone has a column about using coins as an investment, it's his column that is an investment.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote: Many do fantastic. You just never know. Look at a 57 Chevy auto. A few thousand when new is now worth lots and lots. I'm not familiar with the current value of a 57 chevy, but to have kept up with inflation it would have to be over $16K And you would have had to have keep it up that $16K. That also doesn't include all the expenses you put into it over the past 57 years for upkeep and/or storage.
Edited by Conder101 05/15/2015 12:09 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
There's nothing wrong investing in coins. While it can inflate prices for collectors which for us may sting, the biggest problem like always is counterfeits. I had to listen to a seller from the US who probably shelled out a good chunk of his life savings of more than 50,000 USD on Chinese coins. Yup - you can only imagine where it is heading. Don't get me wrong - this seller was quite experienced with US coins. He had sales of more than thousand dollars. At one stage, Chinese coin prices were going through the roof. There were many coins that easily went ten times the price in a matter of few years. I can speak this from experience as I do own some coins as of such. Unfortunately, the seller that I bought coins from was rather inexperienced when it comes to Chinese coins. I think the best advice is, is that be the expert especially if you are going to invest in such amount money.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseriesMy numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htmRegularly updated at least once a month.
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Replies: 14 / Views: 1,902 |
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