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1799 Carlos IIIi, Authentic?

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TJsCoins's Avatar
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 Posted 05/20/2015  11:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I found a shop with an Fisherscope X-Ray XAN 150. They tested the coin for silver and copper. The silver content tested as 93%; for copper 6%. The guy said the coin was real and that if he was allowed to file the edge that it would test closer to 90%. He was not saying he wanted to file the edge, only that would be the result. I do not understand why filing would change the reading? The shop was busy and was not charging me for testing so I did not ask. I think they would have tested for more trace elements but I did not know what else to ask for (I should have asked about gold)...anyhow I think this result makes it a Class 2, yes?

Thanks for all of the specific gravity testing help:) I may still try to get that set up but my scale is not the $500 type.
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 05/20/2015  1:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
TJsCoins If you have a 1/100 of a gram scale do the SG anyway - it will be accurate to 1 decimal point or about 6% to 10% of silver content and it will disclose the density of the entire coin. XRF tests (handheld unit) only do the surface readings to a depth of 1 or 2 microns. Laboratory units can read some elements to 100 microns but that is still only 1 hair thick. A thick Sheffield plate (0.003 or more) made in the UK is often sterling silver .925 but the core is pure copper. The weight of the coin can be correct but the density will be very low. The better grade scale is only needed when results better than 1 decimal place are essential. I use an inexpensive scale as a preliminary screening tool to hunt for counterfeit coins.

The request to file the edge reflects an understanding that over time some silver coins will experience surface enrichment as a result of the corrosion of the surface copper. This is particularly true of a lengthy period of time in salt water. Copper is reactive and surface atoms will be eaten away leaving a higher proportion of silver. This is one reason why the "cleaning" of a spot can be helpful. The Lab unit can get beneath that surface depletion area and produce a closer to correct result.

The Class of the Coin is still undetermined. A quick SG will rule out Class 1 because those coins by definition have densities of 10.0 of less. If the SG confirms 10.3 - the coin is either a Class 2 or genuine. The surface features and the edge point to Class 2 not a genuine coin. So you are closing in.

A lab XRF that tests for gold at concentrations of 100 ppm would be able to determine if the coin was made with silver refined before or after 1870. That would be absolutely conclusive.
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TJsCoins's Avatar
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 Posted 05/20/2015  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, thanks for walking me through this. I purchased this coin as learning tool and it is great that it is turning out be such:) I will get somme time sometime soon to set up the SG test.
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TJsCoins's Avatar
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 Posted 05/20/2015  2:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Luckycuss, thanks for the link!
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Lucky Cuss's Avatar
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 Posted 05/21/2015  12:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Luckycuss, thanks for the link!


You're welcome. I'd add to the information there that I've found nylon thread works well for suspension of the coin.


Quote:
I may still try to get that set up but my scale is not the $500 type.


Not required. I use an inexpensive digital that reads out to the 1/100th of a gram, and periodically verify its accuracy with calibration weights (it has remained dead on for quite some time now). I encounter slight variances during the process (generally <½%) & so use mean values for my computation. I believe the margin of error in my results is actually petty small.
Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
05/21/2015 12:09 am
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colonialjohn's Avatar
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 Posted 05/22/2015  11:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In this XRF scan since this XRF device is a pretty good lab bench type I wonder what the gold (Au) result was in the scan? Still unusual seeing a regal with this type of wavy edge? True - I wonder what that discolored area would read in terms of the copper level or will it suggest a debased silver core?

JPL
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TJsCoins's Avatar
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3229 Posts
 Posted 05/31/2015  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just did my first Specific Gravity tests. The coin it separate tests ranges between 10.28 and 10.45 specific gravity. I guess this means it is either a type 2 CC or it's real. I plan to stop by the same shop to test for gold.
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 06/01/2015  01:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I would agree - genuine or Class 2 are the only optiona at this point.
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TJsCoins's Avatar
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 Posted 06/13/2015  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Got this tested again and results are:
Silver=93%
Copper=6%
Gold=0.0%

No gold makes this one a class 2 CC. I do wonder if the machine that the shop is using is both set up for and sensitive enough to give an accurate reading for trace metals. The guy at the shop said it could detect trace amounts, but he also predicated that the Spanish 8 reales would measure as 0.0% gold.
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 06/18/2015  01:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It simply may be that the XRF tester was not sensitive enough to measure to one tenth of a percent.
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