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2007 Proof Lincoln Memorial Cent Doubling?

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wrongalot's Avatar
United States
608 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2007  9:26 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add wrongalot to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
It looks like seperation to me, what do you all think?

2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling?
Edited by wrongalot
12/30/2007 5:37 pm
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foundinrolls's Avatar
United States
3507 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2007  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I cant tell anything from the picture. Tell us what it is, it looks like a proof. With a little more info, I can check it against some others.

Thanks,
Bill
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wrongalot's Avatar
United States
608 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2007  11:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is a 2007 proof Lincoln.Maybe these will help.

2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling?
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KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2007  11:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's my .02: judging by the thickness of the letters, this is more indicative of distended hub or class VI doubling than Strike Doubling.
Then again, I may be confused by the reflections on the letters, and if doubling appears on both sides, that's more likely to be die fatigue.
Edited by KurtS
12/26/2007 11:22 pm
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wrongalot's Avatar
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 Posted 12/26/2007  11:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What you see on the left hand side of serifs is reflection, can't figure out a good technique for taking photo's of proofs, because of the reflectiveness of proofs.
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Jorgy's Avatar
United States
145 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  12:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jorgy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Try changing your lighting angle so the areas you are pointing out are not in shadow.
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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Or it could be secondary lighting interfering. Before you take an image, see if by putting you hands cupped around the lower area of your coin. It there is any secondary lighting you will notice that you hand/hands will block it. If you are noticing this then try this. Put something in between the unwanted light and your scope. A piece of cardboard or even a sheet of facial taped to your scope to help filter out the brightness of the unwanted light. See if this helps.
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coppercoins's Avatar
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7629 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  6:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's not possible to tell from the images provided. It could possibly be a doubled die evidenced by what appears could be notches on the right sides of the letters.

By the way, the proper term is " Machine Doubling" - no such thing as " Mechanical Doubling". I have no idea who here started that, but the terminology is wrong.
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wrongalot's Avatar
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608 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2007  3:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will attempt to take better pictures, when I can figure out a better way to photograph proofs, have tried the paper between the lighting source and item, still get reflection, trying some different things.
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KurtS's Avatar
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5318 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2007  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It's not possible to tell from the images provided.


I'm going to disagree to a point here. Reflections and other camera artifacts aside, the shape of those letters in LIBERTY strongly suggests something is going on. That's the classic shape of a Class VI doubled die, and the fact it's a proof cent further strengthens that case.

My own method of analyzing digital photos of an object in question is through datapoints. If there are enough datapoints that correlate to the variety in question, other options begin to be ruled out very quickly by statistical probability. By this method, sometimes admittedly lousy photos will contain enough useful data to make an acceptable judgement call. Not to overwork this issue, but I've done photo analysis using poorer source data than many photos on this site. My position is: if enough photons hit the film plane in an identical arrangement, that suggests a positive correlation. There...I've positively beaten a dead horse by now, lol
Edited by KurtS
12/28/2007 5:13 pm
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coppercoins's Avatar
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 Posted 12/28/2007  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Actually you're welcome to disagree, but I have actually attributed thousands if not tens of thousands of die varieties on cents over the past 25 years, and am emailed a hundred images a week with similar questions. I have ten years experience looking at digital images and trying to assess what the coin is using such images, and know where to draw the line between attributing something to be a die variety using online images and needing to see the coin to make such determination. This case is the latter, for a number of reasons.

First, I own hundreds of class 6 doubled dies. This is undeniably NOT a class 6 doubled die. If it's anything, it's a class 4 or class 8.

Second, this is a proof coin, which is very difficult to photograph with any instrument.

Third, neither the instrument nor the lighting used in this case is of highest possible quality, which throws a certain amount of reflection, and odd shadowing onto the subject.

Fourth, this is a new issue, and unless you've personally studied hundreds of 2007 proof cents at this magnification, I would hardly qualify you to make die variety analysis judgement seeing three or four devices on one single coin of that issue.

Fifth, I am definitely disqualified from making such judgement.

Which is why I stated, and stand by the statement, that it is impossible to tell whether this is a doubled die from the images provided...because it is.

The only reason I entertain this as being possible as a doubled die is that what I can see appears to somewhat match (by shadows and light) the basic characteristics of similar doubled dies that have shown up on 2001-2007 business strike cents, giving light to the possibility that a proof example might exist, and that this might be one of those proof examples.

However...to date NO proof doubled die obverse cents showing in LIBERTY are known for any of this century's issues, and I am unwilling to determine that they do from a couple of understandably poorly lit photos on a message board. I can further tell you that none of the recognized author/attributers of Lincoln Cent die varieties would disagree with me.

Edited to add: And this post reveals all the things I went through in my mind BEFORE making my first post to this subject. It's not a simple matter of glancing at a photo and being too lazy to judge the subject or even a case of not wanting to help...the answer was simple, yet the thought put into the answer would require writing a book, which I didn't want to do, but have at this point.

I think at times more credit is due to those who have poured thousands upon thousands of hours into the subject and have seen hundreds of thousands of coins and have photographed tens of thousands of coins. I have a higher awareness for people like this because I know first hand what they've gone through to be doing what they are doing now.
Edited by coppercoins
12/28/2007 8:26 pm
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KurtS's Avatar
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 Posted 12/28/2007  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, I certainly bow to your creds and experience with die varieties. What do I know?
That said, I'm won't begin attempt to sort out what you just wrote...sorry, but I guess I'm just not expert enough to understand. I have not even heard of class 8 DD. My off-the-cuff impression was from photos of proof cent DDOs in Fivaz/Stanton and elsewhere--hardly a definitive attribution!

However, my main point was that even incomplete photos can provide enough data points to provide a preliminary analysis of die varieties--confirmed or disproven of course by then putting the coin under a scope and comparing to established diagnostics. It's not a hard science, because it depends on both the visual data and the person who interprets it. Case in point is my 1870 IHC, where I found in that rough photo data enough datapoints to highly suggest the S-8 variety. At some point it's a judgement call, and sofar my calls and analyses have been fairly accurate. I'll post more when I have all my data collected and new photos made.
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coppercoins's Avatar
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7629 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2007  12:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Where our lines don't meet is that I am unwilling to give the possibility for false hope to someone who is just beginning at die varieties in saying "could be" just to have them fly off the cuff thinking I gave them affirmation of what they suspected. I have learned through the years to tell them that it cannot be determined through photos rather than to say they might have something. I have had more than one person angered after my telling them they might have something good and them using my "possible" as the go-ahead to spend $40+ to slab it and have it come back as Machine Doubling or without attribution at all. Then they end up with a 50 cent coin in a $30 holder and ill feelings toward a supposed 'expert' who told them they had something good. Believe me, it happens. I take the conservative route all the time. If affirmation cannot be given through photos I say so.
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wrongalot's Avatar
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608 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2007  07:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wrongalot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, I have taken maaaannnyyyy pictures, different lighting etc. Here is the best, I think that I am going to get.

2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling? 2007-Proof-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Doubling?
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coppercoins's Avatar
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 Posted 12/30/2007  08:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It still looks like a "could be" but not necessarily an "is". I would give it a 50% shot at this point...which is better than I would give 95% of the coins posted here.
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Metalman's Avatar
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7123 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2007  11:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Metalman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...which is better than I would give 95% of the coins posted here.


Now thats what I call a customer base !

Not every author of reference and teaching aid books can claim or influence on a personal level a 95% majority ! Very Cool !

Metalman
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