1786 Carlus III 8 Reales With Foreign Strikes

First off, welcome.

The impressions you see are called chopmarks, known to have been applied by Chinese merchants as a voucher for a coin's authenticity. Unfortunately, this class of coin (referred to as a "portrait" 8 reales) is a hot mess of old counterfeits, restrikes, and modern forgeries. Even chopmarks themselves have been found to be faked.

There are some ways to visually get a some sort of read on whether pieces like this are genuine (aspects of the edge being especially telling), but mostly testing is in order - accurate weight, specific gravity, even analysis via xray fluorescence.

I'm no authority on these (or much of anything else, if the truth be told) but we do have a resident expert who I imagine will come along soon enough with considerably more valuable opinion and advice than I can offer.

I think we'd definitely like to see the other three you have as well. I will say that you've been done a disservice by anyone who's told you they're without numismatic merit - unless the condition is really wretched, all of this type if real are certainly worth more than melt, and many base metal phonies from the era in which these were circulating coinage are collectible. Only reproductions made very recently have no value.

Hello and welcome Maeg.

Lucky Cuss asked if I would chime in on this coin. I published a book on Portrait Eight Reales Counterfeits last year and I have been a collector of the type for over 50 years (58 years actually - I am getting old).

First of all - the people who advise melting these coins for metal content are crazy. These coins are historically interesting and even if they are counterfeit they are worth more as coins than as raw metal.

Chop marks are viewed in two different ways based on what the collector prefers. If a collector wants to collect these coins as "country of origin" issues he will likely see the chops as damage. They were added in a different country, at a later date and have nothing to do with say Peru or Mexico. The second group collect or are interested in the Chop Marks themselves. That field is relatively new and there are only vague standards. I know just enough about that field to be dangerous, however, I would say you have only 1 chop (the round one on the King's chin) that is likely to be considered more than just run of the mill. The chops that get most interest are typically the type with raised Chinese letters in an oval, circle or square. These larger punches often command a decent premium.

As stated earlier by "Lucky", chop marks are not a guarantee that a coin is genuine. In the 1950s (possibly earlier), numismatic forgeries (I distinguish forgeries made for coin collectors from counterfeits meant to circulate) were made that used chops to cover features that did not come out correctly. Even today more than 60 years later you will find people who still think chop marks guarantee a coin is genuine.

Regarding the coin you posted, it is most likely either genuine or possibly a silver re-strike made for the China trade. (For any forum members who object to the term re-strike my apologies but for a novice it is easier to explain). At the present time both types genuine and re-strike (Class 2) are valued similarly.

Because the coin is a common date Mexican coin you should feature the ODD chop if you plan to sell it say on ebay. The condition of the host coin was fine to very fine before it was chopped. The rim denticles are complete so wear to a grade below fine is NOT possible. This is the starting point - then you need to address loss of detail and damage caused by "common chops". Personally I would downgrade the host 2 full grades for numerous chops. That leaves a grade of good to very good. Such a coin should bring $30-40 full retail. The odd chop is one that I would believe may add $20 to the value for a specialist. I would price the coin at $59.95 BIN or best offer.

I examined the photos closely and in my opinion the coin is most likely a Class 2 coin - a restrike made for the China Trade. That is a guess which would need confirmation. The best method starts by looking at the edge (if you can get closeup in focus pictures please post them). Second you need to check the specific gravity to make sure the coin is silver. Finally XRF may be necessary to distinguish the category.

Hope this helps.

I won't be home tell later this evening but I was offered $20 per each of those coins. As you can expect, I didn't accept. I will take pictures of the sides and weigh them for you when I get home. HE said they were real but not worth anything until the price of silver went up.

I agree in general with Lucky Cuss - all three are probably genuine. The offer of $20 is low but that said a US dealer often sells 8Rs for $30-40 because of a lack of market. So allowing for condition and profit margin $20 was likely close to correct except for the first coin.

The first coin is not 1806 it is 1805. It is from Bolivia and the obverse (portrait side) was double struck - I suspect loose dies because the reverse does not display the same doubling of features.

The mint mark for Colonial Spanish coins is always on the reverse and follows the King's legend. The legend begins on the obverse and ends on the reverse. It is in Latin and reads FERDIN VII DEI GRATIA HISPAN ET IND REX. That translates to Ferdinand VII by the grace of God King of Spain and the Indies. Following this is the mint mark. The M with and o centered above means Mexico City (Mexico). The monogram PTS stands for Potosi (Bolivia). The monogram that looks like ME is LIMAE which stands for Lima (Peru). These are not actually country mint marks because the countries did not exist yet. They are city names. There are other scarcer mint marks S with an o above is Santiago (Chile) but the three explained first are the most common ones.

If you have other mint marks such as So they are likely forgeries and need to be checked closely.

Following the mint mark is the denomination 8R which stands for 8 reales. There are also other denominations 4R, 2R 1R and R (which stands for a half reale).

The final item are the assayer initial(s). There are one or two that refer to the last names of the assayer at the mint. All coins had the assayer identified so the correct person would get hung in case the silver was debased.

The coins should be weighed - and the results should be over 26 grams. Anything lower is likely counterfeit.

The third coin has some odd lines on the surface of both sides - these may be die breaks or just corrosion patterns. That needs to be evaluated.

Once you get enough posts - you might do better selling the coins on this forum.

Most dealers unfortunately are not collectors. Collectors are the best people to contact for answers to questions. I am not saying the dealer was not correct when he said many of the coins belong in a "junk box". Most collectors start with junk box items and work up from there. There is a lot of history to be found in junk boxes.

The average novice thinks age is critical. It is not. Rarity and interest combine to determine value. But to a collector value is secondary.

Regarding where to go depends on what you want to do ultimately. You seem to appreciate the history in coins so you might want to think about collecting yourself and learning how to do most of the tests yourself. Weight and density (specific gravity) can be done with a decent scale that reads accurately to 1/100th gram. Such a scale can be purchased for under $100. There are numerous posts regarding SG.

Much of the process of authentication and evaluation can be done from good photos of both sides and the edge. The edge is often more important than the faces.

Maeg When I started collecting coins (more like accumulating them) when I was six years old I started with coins that the family had in bottles and cans of buttons. I was raised on a subsistence chicken farm so money was scarce. I walked a weekly circuit of all the local roads collecting returnable glass bottles for 2 cents each to fund my collection. So it is not how you start or what the coins are worth but what it leads to. Coins got me interested in history and that got me interested in science. Most importantly that lead to me to an interest in in school and learning.

So by all means keep the coins you have but learn as much as possible about them.

The reason you never clean or polish coins is that they lose value when cleaned or polished. The best thing to do with accumulated dirt is to soak the coins in acetone. This will remove many deposits or loosen them so they can be removed without damage. Never use brushes or abrasives on coins - such cleaning can make a coin only worth scrap metal prices.

Next the coins need to be put in individual holders so that they do not keep scratching one another. I use 2x2 cardboard holders with non-PVC windows. That way you can keep notes about each coin on the holder.