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A New Way To Deter Counterfeits?

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Pillar of the Community

Australia
3831 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2015  8:30 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I've read this interesting article from Japan and I can't imagine why this cannot be used to fight against counterfeits.

In particular, the highlight of this new technology is this:

" Although mass-produced products look smooth and identical to the naked eye, they are different under the microscope because even items cast from the same molds bear unique surface patterns. "

Unlike the previous way of identifying slabbed coins by barcode number which can be easily duplicated and then counterfeit coins can be placed duplicated barcode numbered slabs - this completely eliminates a lot of problems.

The article can be seen here: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20....VXYvJFIZaFn

What do you think?


My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries
My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm
Regularly updated at least once a month.
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Numisma's Avatar
United States
4963 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2015  8:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numisma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We ought to start using things like that.
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Buddy's Avatar
United States
7075 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2015  8:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buddy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The consumer would need the device to read the new label and it would have to be portable. I think it's possible but I also think it is possible for it to be tampered with so it would give false positives.

Still, I think that the slabbers ought to be doing a lot more.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2015  9:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Buddy - it seems the consumer only requires a smartphone which I believe a fair number of us do own one. Sure it's not necessarily cheap but prices are coming down.

The biggest challenge that I can see is that if this technology does work as what it claims, counterfeiters would have no choice but to hire hackers to modify database and upload their data instead. The whole idea is to make their jobs a lot harder.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries
My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm
Regularly updated at least once a month.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2015  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We've been teaching things like this in the Photography Forum for years. It's technologically trivial to shoot images of a coin of a quality sufficient to identify that one coin over all others. The overwhelming threat of counterfeits is with raw coins, anyway.
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aardspeed's Avatar
921 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2015  9:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aardspeed to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
...this could potentially put a stop to people selling their prescriptions illegally on the streets,
which would save a lot of lives!

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jbuck's Avatar
United States
188440 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2015  08:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
We've been teaching things like this in the Photography Forum for years. It's technologically trivial to shoot images of a coin of a quality sufficient to identify that one coin over all others. The overwhelming threat of counterfeits is with raw coins, anyway.
Worth repeating.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2015  09:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Might just work. I wonder how this would work at a coin show where you could just scan any coin you were interested in.
And as already noted, I too think hackers would jump on this.
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Buddy's Avatar
United States
7075 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2015  5:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buddy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Buddy - it seems the consumer only requires a smartphone which I believe a fair number of us do own one.


I would not have thought that was possible but then I don't really know much about that technology. It just didn't seem likely that a smartphone would be able to pick up the tiny details required to read the security device.

So far, my smartphone can only take pictures of my hand. LOL
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 06/10/2015  5:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Basically the "new" technique is to look really closely at your coins and compare them to previously made images Kind of like NGC's photos, or to use a computer to do a "digital fingerprint" and compare it to a previously made one. (kind of like what PCGS did back in 1991, and does currently with Secure Plus submitted coins.)
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Buddy's Avatar
United States
7075 Posts
 Posted 06/10/2015  6:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buddy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okay, Condor101, I think I get it . The 'new' technology sounds a lot like facial recognition software which requires the use of cameras but is dependent upon a database which contains the measurements needed to make a match.

Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts
 Posted 06/10/2015  6:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There has been a huge leap in new technology. Take for instance cellphones and computers made in between 1991 and 2015. Huge changes.

I found this video by 'coin'cedence. Let's look at this technology used in Japan mint. This is used to reject defects at 750 coins per minute. The way it works is that it compares its database of acceptable coins and culls anything that is different. Japanese mint error coins are actually VERY hard to come across. I've seen a couple in hand but that was it. The technology does exist - it's only a matter of how feasible you can bring the cost down and make it applicable.

Note - fast forward to 2:17. I can't figure out how to post the video at that time frame.

wY3B55z7FPI


Inevitably, there is a need to look at newer technology to thwart counterfeiters. Unlike banknotes where you can keep adding new elements and make them harder to be counterfeited, the same cannot be applied to coins that have already been struck.

With slabbed coins - the last thing I want to know after paying a fortune is that they end up in a list of blacklist a few years down the road due to counterfeiters bluntly copying serial numbers. You may struggle to sell it as its difficult to prove that yours is not one of the counterfeit slabs and end up having to send it for regrading again. Not widespread yet but I dare say it is a matter of time.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries
My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm
Regularly updated at least once a month.
Edited by gxseries
06/10/2015 6:58 pm
Valued Member
gshobar's Avatar
United States
75 Posts
 Posted 06/10/2015  10:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gshobar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This definitely is a good plan to have if counterfeit rates continue to increase. PCGS and NGC could likely create a secure database for all coins that they slab, and make an app to identify them. At this time though, the tech doesn't really make sense given that a database would need to be controlled by people who have the credentials to authenticate coins. Otherwise, you could enter any coin, real or fake, into a database. Most raw coins wouldn't be able to be added, which as someone previously stated is where most counterfeits are found.

Maybe a possible solution could be to log raw coins into a public database (no editing, only adding), but not as authentic, but only who has owned the coin, as a way of tracking where a coin has been. ...there are definitely many "kinks" to be worked out of the system, but in the future could definitely provide a desperately needed way to authenticate collectibles of all types (coins, stamps, sports cards, paintings, official documents, et cetera).
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Gyrene7483's Avatar
United States
1704 Posts
 Posted 06/11/2015  03:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gyrene7483 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The problem with trying to use this for raw coins is twofold, first the owners of raw coins need to know this technology existed and secondly those that do are willing to take the time and effort to photograph their coins and submit them for entry into the data base.

I can't imagine too many coin dealers with large raw coin inventories taking the time to do this. As for collectors, they already own the coin so they would think it does not matter to them since they are not interested in selling their collection anytime soon anyway.

I photograph each new acquisition to my collection upon receipt and I doubt that I would send my pictures for that database. I do not want big brother knowing exactly what I have because they will keep a record of who submitted what even though they "officially" say they will not.
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