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Replies: 10 / Views: 1,013 |
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Valued Member
United States
140 Posts |
I guess Coppercoins would be the best to answer based on his experience at it, but anyone can answer who has knowledge. How many examples does it take to identify a die variety? Maybe I'm not asking in the right way, but for instance VAM's...how many Morgan's would have to be catalogged with identical strikes to be registered as a VAM? I am more interested in the varieties of Lincoln's though.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
It only takes one. Any coin that can be confirmed to be a die variety and also can be confirmed as not already listed can be listed with a new die number. Limitations to this include coins that are too low grade to determine and coins that do not show markers. These will usually be ruled out.
By the way, anyone who attributes die varieties properly uses about the same methodology - it's not rocket science, and there really aren't a lot of different ways it can be done.
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Valued Member
 United States
140 Posts |
I notice on your site that many of the varieties have die cracks as part of the identification...so I am guessing that this would be a "marker" as would variations in the image like the steps being wavy and so on....these are the "markers" you speak of?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts |
Markers are only inductive of die states of varieties. EDS (Early Die States) may not have developed markers that would identify later die states. So if you search looking for markers rather than the correct way then with the dies going through the same thing over and over, die flow/die wear/die clashes/die cracks only identify the same die state that a coin is listed in a publication or book. The real determining of a certain die is Separation of the hubbing/RPMs and Location near other devices on the coin. So separation/direction, Location (mainly for RPMs although doubled dies may have mint marks, then markers to see if your coin is from the same die listed. But there are many die states and things happen to the dies with age, even trading out of reverse/obverse dies may happen and the markers will be new for the replacement die. Markers help, but only after you figured out the Separation, then Location first. Just too many Cents out there with the marker die crack/break on column # 12 to match to a certain die. So look of the separation and locations first.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3507 Posts |
Agreed, it only takes one.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1571 Posts |
And to add to the above, there are many dies that will leave markers, but will not be the same die in a given case, Particularily, if it is dated before 1989, and has a MM. The MM having been "hand-placed, or punched, will end up being one if not the final determining factor(s). If I am in error, in any part, please correct me. I'm learning, but still a "newbie". Dick
Edited by livingdinasaur 01/02/2008 5:09 pm
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Valued Member
 United States
140 Posts |
Are die varieties the product of faulted hubs? I know that cracks and chips are results of die deteriation, but what about stuff like wavy steps, doubling and RPM's? Are they the result of the hub?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts |
I'm guessing more of the hubbing issue, not the hub. The process on the single squeeze seems to be at fault. Some refer to it as snap back into the right position as it didn't hit correctly or in some cases a re-hubbing after the operator could see it wasn't in proper alignment. On the multiple hubbed dies, hub wear or using a different hub or rotation/movement of the hub creates a separate spread image on the die. The same hub may make the non-separated dies as well. But the hub is somehow changed/worn/not in the same alignment when hubbed the second/third hubbing. So the doubled/triple die is created.
Edited by coop 01/02/2008 6:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1571 Posts |
I refer you to wavysteps2003, at coppercoins.com, for a good informational answer on the "wavy-steps/trails" doubling. He is the one who is doing the reesearch on this annmaly(s). BJ has done a lot of work on this. Dick
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
Die varieties are not the result of faulty hubs, rather a fault in how the hub met the die. If the die is not set correctly in the press when the design is placed into it, the result can be a doubled design on the die, thus a doubled die. The doubling is called "hub doubling".
Repunched mintmarks are a thing of bygone days (pre 1990) when mintmarks were placed into the individual dies by hand. If the punch wasn't sitting right or if it had to be punched in deeper after the initial punching, any misalignment would cause doubling of the mintmark - thus a repunched mintmark.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
as for VAM's its usually a die marriage that is the result of the specific VAM# and again it only takes one coin
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Replies: 10 / Views: 1,013 |
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