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How Is A Die Variety Confirmed?

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 Posted 01/02/2008  01:24 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MountainXBGL to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I guess Coppercoins would be the best to answer based on his experience at it, but anyone can answer who has knowledge.

How many examples does it take to identify a die variety? Maybe I'm not asking in the right way, but for instance VAM's...how many Morgan's would have to be catalogged with identical strikes to be registered as a VAM?

I am more interested in the varieties of Lincoln's though.
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coppercoins's Avatar
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 Posted 01/02/2008  03:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It only takes one. Any coin that can be confirmed to be a die variety and also can be confirmed as not already listed can be listed with a new die number. Limitations to this include coins that are too low grade to determine and coins that do not show markers. These will usually be ruled out.

By the way, anyone who attributes die varieties properly uses about the same methodology - it's not rocket science, and there really aren't a lot of different ways it can be done.
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 Posted 01/02/2008  04:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MountainXBGL to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I notice on your site that many of the varieties have die cracks as part of the identification...so I am guessing that this would be a "marker" as would variations in the image like the steps being wavy and so on....these are the "markers" you speak of?
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coop's Avatar
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 Posted 01/02/2008  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Markers are only inductive of die states of varieties. EDS (Early Die States) may not have developed markers that would identify later die states. So if you search looking for markers rather than the correct way then with the dies going through the same thing over and over, die flow/die wear/die clashes/die cracks only identify the same die state that a coin is listed in a publication or book. The real determining of a certain die is Separation of the hubbing/RPMs and Location near other devices on the coin. So separation/direction, Location (mainly for RPMs although doubled dies may have mint marks, then markers to see if your coin is from the same die listed. But there are many die states and things happen to the dies with age, even trading out of reverse/obverse dies may happen and the markers will be new for the replacement die. Markers help, but only after you figured out the Separation, then Location first. Just too many Cents out there with the marker die crack/break on column # 12 to match to a certain die. So look of the separation and locations first.
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foundinrolls's Avatar
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 Posted 01/02/2008  4:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed, it only takes one.
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livingdinasaur's Avatar
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 Posted 01/02/2008  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingdinasaur to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And to add to the above, there are many dies that will leave markers, but will not be the same die in a given case, Particularily, if it is dated before 1989, and has a MM. The MM having been "hand-placed, or punched, will end up being one if not the final determining factor(s). If I am in error, in any part, please correct me. I'm learning, but still a "newbie".
Dick
Edited by livingdinasaur
01/02/2008 5:09 pm
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 Posted 01/02/2008  5:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MountainXBGL to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are die varieties the product of faulted hubs? I know that cracks and chips are results of die deteriation, but what about stuff like wavy steps, doubling and RPM's? Are they the result of the hub?
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coop's Avatar
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 Posted 01/02/2008  6:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm guessing more of the hubbing issue, not the hub. The process on the single squeeze seems to be at fault. Some refer to it as snap back into the right position as it didn't hit correctly or in some cases a re-hubbing after the operator could see it wasn't in proper alignment. On the multiple hubbed dies, hub wear or using a different hub or rotation/movement of the hub creates a separate spread image on the die. The same hub may make the non-separated dies as well. But the hub is somehow changed/worn/not in the same alignment when hubbed the second/third hubbing. So the doubled/triple die is created.
Edited by coop
01/02/2008 6:26 pm
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livingdinasaur's Avatar
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 Posted 01/02/2008  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingdinasaur to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I refer you to wavysteps2003, at coppercoins.com, for a good informational answer on the "wavy-steps/trails" doubling. He is the one who is doing the reesearch on this annmaly(s). BJ has done a lot of work on this.
Dick
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coppercoins's Avatar
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 Posted 01/03/2008  12:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Die varieties are not the result of faulty hubs, rather a fault in how the hub met the die. If the die is not set correctly in the press when the design is placed into it, the result can be a doubled design on the die, thus a doubled die. The doubling is called "hub doubling".

Repunched mintmarks are a thing of bygone days (pre 1990) when mintmarks were placed into the individual dies by hand. If the punch wasn't sitting right or if it had to be punched in deeper after the initial punching, any misalignment would cause doubling of the mintmark - thus a repunched mintmark.
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Bryan1315's Avatar
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14454 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2008  07:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
as for VAM's its usually a die marriage that is the result of the specific VAM# and again it only takes one coin
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