1787 "vermont" Colonial Struck Over C. Nova, Machin's?

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Author	Replies: 13 / Views: 2,196
paralyse Bedrock of the Community United States 12057 Posts	Posted 08/08/2015 12:21 am I think this is a Machin or Harmon overstrike? "Vermont", bust right, very rough shape. Crude, even by those standards. You can see the remains of the poor victim Nova -- the sunburst in the center, the letters LLA between INDE ET LIB. A fascinating bit of history that they couldn't even be bothered to sand the (already underweight) planchets down before restriking them a couple of times. The little paper envelope that came with the coin identifies it as a Ryder 12 (RR 12.) I love the 60s style phone number, and apparently these must have been more common back then because I can't think of anyone selling pre-printed envelopes in that style! I don't think the coin's worth very much at all, especially when compared to the Vermonts/Vermontis/Vermontensium with that cool smiley-face and the trees, but it's a fun little raw coin with a story behind it. I'll have to research the name on the envelope. Thoughts on a "grade" (LOL) or attribution would be helpful. I'm not very experienced with colonials. (I think the envelope's probably worth as much as the coin; I'd grade the envelope TMG - totally made-up grade - AU Details/Graffiti.) Happy Vermont'ing..err..Nova'ing...or something! Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Report this Post to the Staff

amida17 Pillar of the Community United States 4897 Posts	Posted 08/08/2015 07:42 am Very cool! It is indeed a Machins Mills piece. The large planchet variety, like this, is mostly found struck over a Nova. VF details. Report this Post to the Staff
westcoin Pillar of the Community United States 9792 Posts	Posted 08/08/2015 11:51 pm Can't say, not my specialty, but that is a Richard Picker pedigree! I've been looking for his Library Catalog for years, he sold his books through Remy Bourne. Any one have a copy they want to part with? Cool coin whatever it is, I'm inclined to go with Dick's written description on the envelope. Don't lose the envelope, it makes the coin worth more, by providing provenance of a top collection. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 Report this Post to the Staff
paralyse Bedrock of the Community United States 12057 Posts	Posted 08/08/2015 11:56 pm That's awesome information! Thank you both. The coin is staying inside the envelope (not much sense in slabbing it) in my cabinet. Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Report this Post to the Staff
kbbpll Pillar of the Community United States 4233 Posts	Posted 08/09/2015 12:03 am My first phone number as a kid in Chicago (very early 60s) was prefixed WAterfall 8. The first two letters represented a memorable telephone exchange name. It was phased out later in the 1960s to an all-numeric system. I bet the "eass" on the envelope was a code for the amount paid for the coin. I don't know if retailers/coin dealers still do that, but at an early bike shop job we used "pathfinder", where each letter represented 0-9; purchase price was coded and included on price tags. Richard Picker pops up on search engines as a "collector and dealer in colonial and early American coins" (1915-1983). http://numismatics.org/archives/ark...695/nnan0088 Very cool history with the coin and envelope. Report this Post to the Staff
paralyse Bedrock of the Community United States 12057 Posts	Posted 08/09/2015 12:30 am My grandpa's body shop from the 50s to the 60s was HIllcrest 2-2691. HI2 became 442 with the NANP implementation, and it changed to (501) 442-2691 and remained that way until the 80s. He passed away in 1986 and it was sold to another family who still runs it to this day. When I was a used car salesman in a past era we used BLACK and WHITE for the same purpose, B=1, E=0, so on. Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Edited by paralyse 08/09/2015 12:36 am Report this Post to the Staff
vermontensium Moderator United States 16679 Posts	Posted 08/09/2015 02:36 am Agree with amida17's assessment but, get that active verdigris off the obverse. I dealt with a Ryder 10 like that. Believe me..it will progress. swcoin.ecrater.com Report this Post to the Staff
paralyse Bedrock of the Community United States 12057 Posts	Posted 08/09/2015 04:14 am Verdi-Care should do the trick, yes? Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Report this Post to the Staff
westcoin Pillar of the Community United States 9792 Posts	Posted 08/09/2015 05:54 am Quote: Verdi-Care should do the trick, yes? Yes! - Verdi-Care is the stuff! Might try it as it will NOT hurt the coin, and it will conserve as well as condition it for storage, I'd get some cotton envelopes (advertised and endorsed by the EAC), available at our favorite shop online again (since the previous supply source, Rod Burress passed on. R.I.P.) Wizard Coin Supply http://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/cot...velopes.html Great for storing old copper!, put the coin after conservation with the Verdi-Care into the cotton liner, then back into either the original envelope or a new paper envelope, for long term storage, or an archival crown sized flip (2.5") one side holding the original envelope the other holding the cotton liner and coin. Be sure to check on the coin every 6 months or so, just to be sure the corrosion is not spreading or growing at all. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 Report this Post to the Staff
westcoin Pillar of the Community United States 9792 Posts	Posted 08/09/2015 06:14 am A little more history on Richard "Dick" Picker, he was known best as Dick in the coin business and was one of the best known dealers of Colonial/pre-federal era coinage, tokens, books and ephemera. Alan V. Weinberg; Quote: Similarly, Long Island's Dick Picker always had a fascinating assemblage of rare colonial coins (he was the only regular dealer in such esoterica back then - Bill Anton only occasionally set up and was more of a collector) and Dick's prices were always sky high but you were paying for his expertise and his was the "only game in town". Dick always refused to "grade" his coins- he firmly insisted the grade was reflected in his price. My biggest regret in all these years was when Dick called me up at home the summer of 1962 - I'd just graduated from high school. He had the Virgil Brand Brasher Doubloon and offered it to me for $15,000. I just didn't have the money and Dick sold it immediately to Jack Friedberg. Chicagoan Walt Persche has owned it now for decades, having bought it at a RARCOA auction for about $434,000 and last I heard he wanted $5 or 6 million for it. Dick Picker reigned supreme for years until the theft of a briefcase out of an ANA show security room (contents never recovered and the unique die trial uniface WM 1792 Roman Head cent is still outstanding) and the resulting years-long battle with the ANA resulting in Dick's being barred from the ANA bourse sapped him of life. Stack's: Quote: Dick Picker, whose estate collection we offered at auction, was well known and respected in numismatic circles. He was a very active dealer two generations ago and combined numismatic expertise with a keen sense of market values. Dick absolutely refused to assign a numerical or adjectival grade to any coin, thus avoiding controversy. As his sales were in-person through want lists and convention exhibits, prospective buyers always had a chance to examine in person before making a decision. If you approached him at his bourse table and asked, "What grade is that Pine Tree shilling in?" The answer might be, "Two thousand dollars." Stack's sold several of his collections; The Richard Picker Collection of Colonial & Early American Coins, October 24, 1984, New York, NY Stacks, Featuring the Richard Picker, Eugene B Benedict and Rising Collections, May 1-3 1991, New York, NY And 2 Coin Galleries Auctions; Ancient and Modern Coins of the World and the United States featuring the Richard Picker Collection of Brockages, May 24, 1989, New York, NY Ancient and Modern Coins of the World and the United States featuring the Richard Picker Reference Collection of Struck Colonial copies, Colonial coins, November 7, 1990, New York, NY Dick was an interesting and friendly guy from my research, the numismatic world (colonial especially), is a better place due to his research and willingness to share his knowledge and findings. His library is legendary in the EAC and Colonial collector world, hence my desire to obtain an auction catalog of the sale - just to see what is contained in it. I have already acquired the prices realized from the sale by Remy Bourne, however the actual catalog has eluded me so far. Many of his coins were also sold by Stack's in the John J. Ford sales, as he had purchased many coins from Dick, possibly you could track down some more information and history on this piece, through sale catalogs, shouldn't be too hard with the information contained on the envelope, if it ever sold at auction, it could easily have been just a coin he sold at a show from his inventory too. Worth a look see. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 Edited by westcoin 08/09/2015 06:24 am Report this Post to the Staff
westcoin Pillar of the Community United States 9792 Posts	Posted 08/09/2015 06:29 am One last post - I FOUND this coin's provenance: "Ryder-12, Fine, Corroded, Ex: Richard Picker (11/14/1960)" http://coins.ha.com/itm/colonials/g.../1145-3318.s I used the following search terms exactly as typed in Google: Vermont "Ryder-12" Picker auction So it seems it was sold directly by Dick Picker back on 11/14/1960 to W. Philip Keller and was then sold in "The W. Philip Keller Collection of U.S. Colonials" by Heritage on October 27-31, 2010 in their Signature Sale #1145 held in Stamford, Connecticut. Looks like you bought the coin (eBay- 252033086434) from Friscomint1793 on August 6, 2015 off ebay, a nice find, and a fair price IMHO, as Chris Victor-McCauley (CVM-AKA Friscomint1793) had a F15 listed in his 2012 Christmas Catalog on page 11 for $775.00 which he finally sold at the EAC sale in 2013 (Lot #6) for $550.00 So your purchase price of $350.00 seems pretty darn fair. Not a lot can get by some of us at CCF. Well that was some fun detective work and a good way to spend a few hours pouring over old catalogs in my library. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 Edited by westcoin 08/09/2015 07:00 am Report this Post to the Staff
paralyse Bedrock of the Community United States 12057 Posts	Posted 08/09/2015 5:36 pm Westcoin, your knowledge is amazing. That is super awesome detective work. I'm almost out of Verdi-Care so it's off to place a new order. Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Report this Post to the Staff
vermontensium Moderator United States 16679 Posts	Posted 08/09/2015 5:49 pm Excellent research westcoin! swcoin.ecrater.com Report this Post to the Staff
westcoin Pillar of the Community United States 9792 Posts	Posted 08/09/2015 9:23 pm Thanks guys it was fun, I was bored and had nothing better to do! "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 Report this Post to the Staff
	Replies: 13 / Views: 2,196

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1787 "Vermont" Colonial Struck Over C. Nova, Machin's?