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Replies: 121 / Views: 11,956 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2632 Posts |
Strangecoins thanks for posting this coin and thanks Mods for allowing the thread to continue. I'm not an expert but have studied the minting process and errors for a few years now. I agree this coin can easily be made in a shop using a soft die and a few coins. First, notice the in field off centered lettering (reverse) and note how some of it runs over the originally struck letters. Those original letters are barely if at all flatened by the soft die. The soft die is tough enough to raise some lettering in field and on leaf but not tough enough to 'flatten and raise' existing lettering. Secondly, if made in the Mint then it would have been on purpose by putting a cent (reverse) under the obverse and adding a couple very light strikes the the opposite side. Either way, first this coin was minted then it was altered. Just my opinion
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New Member
 United States
46 Posts |
bobby131313, Again yes I understand but in order for people to be deceitful they first must have some kind of motivation, IE money, Fame without the motivation people tend to leave things alone. Since my wife is from Nova Scotia and her family is all agreeing with her on the provenance of the coin and again my wife had this in her jewelry box for 36 years I do not think she was looking for either. She told me about it after we got married 10 years ago but even then I did not see any value in it because it was Canadian and I am saying this not as a diss, but as a person who did not keep an eye on Canadian Coins or there value until I noticed 1953 Canada nickel on ebay over a week ago.
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Forum Dad
 United States
24178 Posts |
Quote: bobby131313, Again yes I understand but in order for people to be deceitful they first must have some kind of motivation, IE money, Fame without the motivation people tend to leave things alone. And if they could have sold it to a collector back in the 40's for 5 bucks how many meals would that buy then, for a few minutes work? There was no internet back then to research it. That coin may have been sold 100 times as an error until it ended up in the jewelry box.
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New Member
 United States
46 Posts |
I highly doubt it would have got $5 bucks in the forties it only would have need up in a jewelry box anyway. They had no real value just a penny so again why do all the work.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Quote: They had no real value just a penny so again why do all the work. Because this was not created as a deliberate fraud. It was created because someone was bored. And it should be noted that the most successful counterfeits are the common dates which nobody thinks will be counterfeited because they are so common. Quote: As with the 1943 copper coin it is only opinion that keeps that going, the famous 1913 nickels also, all opinion. Wait, what? Copper 1943's are "opinion" now? You want to discuss the fine points of evaluating images, and correcting for the vagaries of digital photography, come to our Photography Forum where I've been teaching it for the last ten years.
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Forum Dad
 United States
24178 Posts |
Quote: I highly doubt it would have got $5 bucks in the forties it only would have need up in a jewelry box anyway. They had no real value just a penny so again why do all the work. I completely disagree. I pulled the $5 number out of the air, even if it was $1, still quite the profit for very little work and a 1¢ investment. Snake oil of Numismatics.
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New Member
 United States
46 Posts |
I keep older Red and Black Books on hand to see how much has changed over the years 1960 rebook 1909s VDB $85 UNC. Mint error's have been mentioned in the front of the book's since the 70s 1960 rebook No mention. You can find the 55DD at $50UNC. I also remember the comic books of the mid 60s with the Ads about collectors Buying 43 copper pennies and how much you would get for finding one or 1804 silver Dollar from a certain company out of NJ. That when the error coin craze really got it's start.
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New Member
 United States
46 Posts |
Wait, what? Copper 1943's are "opinion" now? I can take you to some site's where the Coin dealers are still split on that. According to the sites it say's even the experts are split on the validity of the 1943 copper penny. This is taken right of the US Mint site. an mind the words, (Coin experts speculate) What's So Special About the 1943 Copper Penny?( According to the American Numismatic Association, the 1943 copper-alloy cent is one of the most idealized and potentially one of the most sought-after items in American numismatics. Nearly all circulating pennies at that time were struck in zinc-coated steel because copper and nickel were needed for the Allied war effort. Approximately 40 1943 copper-alloy cents are known to remain in existence. 40 1943 copper-alloy cents are known to remain in existence. Coin experts speculate that they were struck by accident when copper-alloy 1-cent blanks remained in the press hopper when production began on the new steel pennies. A 1943 copper cent was first offered for sale in 1958, bringing more than $40,000. A subsequent piece sold for $10,000 at an ANA convention in 1981. The highest amount paid for a 1943 copper cent was $82,500 in 1996. Because of its collector value, the 1943 copper cent has been counterfeited by coating steel cents with copper or by altering the dates of 1945, 1948, and 1949 pennies. The easiest way to determine if a 1943 cent is made of steel, and not copper, is to use a magnet. If it sticks to the magnet, it is not copper. If it does not stick, the coin might be of copper and should be authenticated by an expert. To find out about coin experts in your area, you may call the American Numismatic Association at (719) 632-2646.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2845 Posts |
Why do "all the work?"
Because people don't mutilate coin with it being "work" to mind. Seems that you might be inclined to believe people don't do anything unless it leads to immediate profit and if so, you may be giving your age away! The fact is people have always experimented with stuff out of curiosity, boredom or simply as a challenge. Often it's people who are already handy with the required tools, either at the workplace or in their garage.
Consider this scenario as a possibility: "Look isn't this cool?" He hands the coins that he creatively altered out to his buddies, one's not real impressed, shrugs and soon pops it back into circulation whereby it's passed to your wife's relative. Even if this occurred at a time when a penny had some value, as long as it still faintly resembles a penny it still was spendable so the "creator" had nothing to lose.
Next time you visit your local bank branch, ask if they will show you their mutilated coin and you might be surprised......chiselled, drilled, bent, sawed, whacked. I know when I worked at one in the 70s it amazed me how it was obvious that sort of "creativity" was a pleasurable pastime for some.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Quote: According to the sites it say's even the experts are split on the validity of the 1943 copper penny. Whatever website you read that from is either just plain wrong or you are drastically misinterpreting what you read. NO ONE with any gravitas in the numismatic community thinks the 1943 coppers and 1944 steels are some fabrication instead of legitimate off-metal errors. It is simply a matter of a few of the previous year's planchets being left in the planchet bins and then getting run with the new planchets, it is not any more complicated than that. It happens almost every time there is a composition change- 90% silver coins are known with 1965 dates, 40% silver halves exist for 1971 and 1977, and there are also a few 1983 copper cents floating around.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2563 Posts |
Since only bobby posted an example of a vise job, I will elaborate and show some examples. Because your coin has incuse markings on the back, there is substantial evidence that the coin "error" was made by hitting or pressing another coin into it. The dual dates explain the existence of a second coin. Here are some examples: Reverse lettering as a result of a vise job:  Weak, reversed image of the opposite side of the coin on both sides (evidence of a rim hit):   Reversed lettering because of a vise job:  Your coin has a blatantly obvious rim hit at 2-6 o'clock:  The reason your coin's "double strike" faces the same way as the initial strike is because the coin was pressed so hard into the obverse that the metal was pushed up to where it gives the appearance of a double struck coin. Once again, the incuse lettering proves this. I'm sorry to disappoint, but many of my first "errors" were fakes/not errors and all of them were posted on here. I am far from an expert, but this is my opinion as I see it.
Edited by CoinCollector2000 08/10/2015 4:23 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2563 Posts |
Quote: According to the sites it say's even the experts are split on the validity of the 1943 copper penny. Please provide a source. I have heard no such accusation because they were made from copper blanks from the previous year with a 1943 die. The same to the 1944 steel cent, they were made with steel blanks for 1943. The 1943 copper cent isn't hard to understand, and what I assume is making up stories doesn't help your case. If I am wrong, please correct me.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
In the interest of clarity - since my own personal opinion is so far the other way that it's easy for me to be considered biased (because I am  ) - there is a non-zero chance that this was, in fact, created on Mint property. It would require careful, deliberate work and a fair amount of press time, but it is in the realm of possibility as long as you make the (large) mental leap of assuming a Mint worker had access to both 1943 and 1944 dies simultaneously. And, frankly, in order to be objective here I'm having to ignore the blatant time anomaly that travel back to 1941 would have to be the very_last_thing which happened to the coin.... The line in the sand for me is, I cannot envision a scenario in which this happens at the Mint accidentally. The other side of that line is an area where moral judgment comes into play somewhat, as does pure subjectivity about the legitimacy of employee-created "errors." I am remiss in offering any values-based opinions there, if I have. All the same, purely logical evaluation shows the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence pointing towards a postmint event being responsible here. The only anomaly in the whole picture is that this is a Canadian coin - such whimsical "errors" are so common with Lincoln Cents that they're early learning material for aspiring Lincoln collectors. The mechanism of creation is usually known or easily inferred, and their commonality - Texas Cents, vise jobs, the like - makes them the logical choice as an explanation simply because the sole Mint possibility is so outlandishly unlikely.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2563 Posts |
 completely. You hit the nail on the head with the Lincoln Cent example
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Replies: 121 / Views: 11,956 |