Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Specializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors 300,000 items to help build your collection!








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Is Anything Wrong With This Coin? 1777 MO Ff

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 3,269Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2015  01:38 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Below are pictures of a 1777 Mo FF 8 reales.

Genuine - Counterfeit or Forgery and why?



Is-Anything-Wrong-With-This-Coin?--1777-MO-Ff
Pillar of the Community
MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2015  04:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Portrait looks off for some reasons (eyes & smile), but there is something clearly wrong with the denticles on the pillar side - they stop short.
It's also visible on the top of the portrait side.
Looks like a copy from a genuine coin - it's pretty sharp actually .
Edited by MathieuMa
09/01/2015 11:50 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
684 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2015  11:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Westwood Arms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Love the quizzes, I think the coin is fake:

1) The edge priority on the reverse from 4 o'clock to 9 o'clock is wrong

2) The I in DEI is canted and different than the other I's, in fact the I in HISPAN looks straight out of times new roman

3) III in CAROLUS III seems to be at an angle

4) The crossbar on the F's in assayer initials looks too narrow

5) Eyes and mouth are off, though I can't quite put my finger on it
Pillar of the Community
MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2015  11:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Westwood Arms : I remember that no one managed to get that smile properly on those copies, that's indeed a good tip :D
Pillar of the Community
jgenn's Avatar
United States
1156 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2015  11:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The edge priority on the reverse from 4 o'clock to 9 o'clock is wrong


I agree that this is the most problematic issue. The others I would attribute to normal die sinking variance/punch wear.

Here's mine for comparison (it's been slightly cropped during the photo masking process).

Is-Anything-Wrong-With-This-Coin?--1777-MO-Ff
Pillar of the Community
wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2015  09:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The edge priority on the reverse from 4 o'clock to 9 o'clock is wrong


Other than this, no other telltale clues to say it is not genuine.
Pillar of the Community
jfransch's Avatar
United States
1801 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2015  11:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is one of mine for comparison as well. The denticles on the original post do not appear to extend all the way to the edge of the coin as they should.

Is-Anything-Wrong-With-This-Coin?--1777-MO-Ff

Is-Anything-Wrong-With-This-Coin?--1777-MO-Ff
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2015  2:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Refer back to:
https://goccf.com/t/147451
https://goccf.com/t/161041
https://goccf.com/t/167541

All of the same origin... I have seen 1777, 1778, and 1780 with the same exact assayer FF reverse (with a characteristic dimple in the denticles above the crown just to the right of 12 o'clock)... and of course, on the infamous mythical "1776-FF" that we've discussed before (shows up in Postal Commemorative Soc. folders and elsewhere).

There are more dates/assayers (several are also mythical combos) linked to the same origin by virtue of appearing together in the same batches/from the same sellers, physical characteristics, etc.
Pillar of the Community
CopperCastle's Avatar
United States
1132 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2015  3:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CopperCastle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I feel like swamperbob is testing us. He did after all literally write the book on this.
Pillar of the Community
swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2015  4:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The answer is that the coin is a Numismatic Forgery. It was made using a genuine worn coin as host. The dies are created with an image transfer process. The coins are struck on a variety of metals - not normally silver. The edge detail is applied post strike.

How do I know? I own three that I bought directly from the forger. The coin has been on the market for 5 or 6 years and does very well on ebay. It was one of several dozen that we took down every time they were spotted without a vote of the complete committee. Here is one of mine (from the discs that accompany my book).

Is-Anything-Wrong-With-This-Coin?--1777-MO-Ff

The comments are in general correct at least most saw the coin as a fake. When the dentils end at an arc short of the edge of the coin, that is a clue which by itself is adequate to diagnose a forgery (This applies to Portrait and early First Republic Cap and Ray coins where the die contains a full length image of the dentils.)

Therefore, in this case the edge error is not due to edging priority. The host coin had only partial dentils. When the image was transferred the incomplete dentils were transferred. If the counterfeiter does not center the planchet absolutely correctly the actual edge of the die shows which is the case here.

The coin was edged after it was struck. The edging is very shallow and there are polishing marks on the edge clearly visible on most copies.

The bifurcated I in DEI is an anomaly which is usually seen on older dies. By itself a one letter variation is not a definitive clue for forgery. There are three theories for why it happens. The type with clear radial flow lines from the highest point of the bifurcation to the field of the coin is seen by some to be caused by actual die erosion due to metal fatigue. In this case there will be some slight variation in the bases of the letters. A second theory is that the die developed a partial fill at the same point. The third theory is that the punches used to make the dies failed. In this case the bases should be identical including any flow erosion lines on the punch. In this case - a single anomalous letter seems to fit the second theory the filled die theory best.

Points 3 and 4 above represent "normal" variation. In the case of point 3 that type of positional variation in lettering is seen on many dies. Mexico City dies were usually very well placed and aligned radially. Other mints, like Potosi are very poorly aligned.

Point 4 is a lettering difference, in this case within the "normal" range. There are many cases where counterfeiters used their own letter punches using an incorrect font. In my book on page 149 I show my reconstruction of the alpha-numeric portion of the Mexico City Matrix block for Charles III. The same block(s) for other mints can be assemble with a little more work by any collector using the Heritage data base. I find that it is best to use full size enlarged pictures of each letter, number and punch feature for comparison. Unfortunately that would mean dozens of pages for each block and my book was too big already to include one more page. Amazon has a 600 page limit for printing and my book is exactly that long.

The final tell-tale problem with this coin is that the dies have been re-touched. People alluded to it by saying something was wrong with the eye and the mouth. They are in fact both retouched apparently to remove problems with the transfer. But the forger here went a bit overboard. He recut the last leaves of the laurel wreath on the King's head. Simply look at the final picture posted and compare the laurel leaves near the ear. Based on wear to the ear - the leaves should not be outlined as they are.

The coin is worth melt plus a $ 5-15 premium at the very most.







Pillar of the Community
swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2015  4:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just checked ebay and the auction has been terminated for this coin. It was a Buy It Now for $159.

The dealer who posted the coin has over 25,000 positive feedbacks and he was reluctant to remove the coin because he was "very familiar" with counterfeits and he knew how to tell the difference. He insisted this coin was genuine.

I guess my second more detailed letter convinced him, that he needed to take a second look. I included pictures of all three identical copies I own.

In this case, the best way to resolve the problem was not contacting ebay. The new management would have been unlikely to remove it. But this way, I have a chance to make a new friend. I prevented him from selling a fake and spared him strike one with ebay.
Pillar of the Community
wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2015  01:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The coin was edged after it was struck.


So the edge examination would disclose the coin is a forgery even by a less experienced coin collector. Thank you your fantastic explanation.

The edge problem intrigues me to another question. Could the forger reverse the process, the coin was edged first and then struck? Then the fault could be hidden.
  Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 3,269Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.31 seconds to rattle this change. Forums