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 Replies: 13 / Views: 2,348 |
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Pillar of the Community
778 Posts |
Here are my silver coins of Ferdinand & Isabella (and Joanna, their daughter) -
Half Real
One Real
Two Reales
4 Reales
8 Reales As I remember, a scarce 1/4 Real was also made. Does anyone have one to show?
Bill
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
Very nice! Interesting that the half reale doesn't use the monarch's initials. The sgraffito decoration makes these coins look almost Arabic.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
10/07/2015 11:43 am
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Bill, your 8 reales is of a dubious type, supposed to have been minted in the new world (or at least, described as such in some catalogs).
Some auction house sell those as fakes (Cayon for example) - some as OK (Aureo, in the next auction for example)
If you can, it would be a very nice candidate for a lab xrf.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Mat, I have (2) of those dubious Reyes Catolicos 8R... and have saved pictures of almost every one I've seen. Cayon and Sedwick seem to be of the mind that they are perhaps late 1800s style numismatic imitations... and of course Calico catalogs them as a New World type. The primary grouping of them seems to emanate from Nesmith, maybe circa 1950s?... then through several other well-known hands since them. Joel Ruth has handled/sold a quantity of them over the past 5-10 years and vouches for them. A curious issue... I asked the younger Cayon about them a couple years back and got kind of a cagey answer about them, but definitely calling them not genuine. I might try bringing my (2) specimens for show-and-tell to Sedwick at the NYINC in January (I've never really caught him for a conversation in person) and picking his brain on them. I get the feeling the he and the other biggies know more than is public (as is often the case where numismatics meets treasure hunting/salvage).
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
realeswatcher : in the topic in the fake group he said that he had no opinion on those, that many came from serious persons which wouldn't handle crap on purpose.
To me - a part of the riddle can be sold with XRF - if there is modern contamination in those at least (if not, we will know that it was not made with modern metal). Else well, this will be ruled out.
The stuff which looks odd is that there seem to be many variants . a bit the same issue than the one I have with Zacatecas :)
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Pillar of the Community
Austria
566 Posts |
Indeed, the 8 reales looks unusual, more like a contemporary immitation.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
realeswatcher : in the topic in the fake group he said that he had no opinion on those, that many came from serious persons which wouldn't handle crap on purpose. He who - the younger Cayon (I believe it's Juan - 30s-ish)? Most curious... as I said, everything seems "cagey" about these. But certainly, it's not some recent fake... as I said, they apparently all originally emanated from Nesmith - he whose Carlos & Juana Mexico 4R cataloging is still used and who wrote multiple books on various Spanish realm coinage. Some passed from him to two other "big names" in the 50s-60s, so those have passed through good hands. Speaking of crap, did you guys ever discuss last year's wonderful Fabulous Offering of Deceptive Fake Counterstamped 8R? Quote:
The stuff which looks odd is that there seem to be many variants Actually, of the ones I've seen/saved pics of... to my eyes it appears they all come from an identical die. What may make it seem like there are many variant features is that they often show some degree of doubling and/or misstriking, thus sort of obscuring the design somewhat. That of course is rather unlike the "normal" Seville 8R, which typically come nicely struck, round planchets, etc. Interestingly, the doubling, etc. would seem to suggest that they were struck rather than simply cast... though possibly on cast planchets (they are always rather porous... though never really in the manner which seawear normally occurs). |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
realeswatcher : he = augie/sedwick (don't you have an account on that group ? :D )
As for the "Fabulous Offering of Deceptive Fake Counterstamped 8R" - I suppose you mean the Cayon sale ? We indeed discussed it, and got some lots withdrawn prior to the auction (without counting those which were listed as fakes) . Officially, the collection was sold with them "for completeness" .
As for the variants, I indeed meant that they don't seem to come from an easy mold - but were rather struck on a cast planchet . they indeed all look alike design wise.
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Pillar of the Community
 778 Posts |
MathieuMa,
Are ALL 8 Reales of this kind counterfeit?
It was my understanding that crowns of this type (ie Ferdinand and Isabella) were officially struck between 1530 and 1560 during the reign of Charles I or Phillip II.
Is that in dispute?
Thanks,
Bill
Edited by BillSnyder
11/11/2015 6:00 pm
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
BillSnyder : all the 8 reales of this particular type are suspected to be counterfeit yes. Design details are : * odd castle design looking like an inca temple * oSo mint mark * Strange circle in the middle of the ribbons. That type is sometime documented as "first 8 reales of America"- suposedely minted in the new world . There is no documentation about those . and frankly, minted from what, no one knows : you need ore / mines in order to do so, and you mint 8 reales if you have enough metal . The first came to light from an unknown salvage, and seem to all come from that same single source. That frankly sound more than fishy, particularly when you know the stories of forged cobs from the same period. Some dealers list them as contemporary counterfeit (Cayon), some others just tell the story and say that they don't have more evidences (Aureo), Sedwick said what I listed above. Here is a regular 8 reales for comparison (check out the details mentioned above) , minted in Seville, from my collection (and from the HSA collection) :    |
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Pillar of the Community
778 Posts |
Thank you very much!
I see that my example, purchased in 1992, came from a Coin Galleries auction. I fear that that company lacked expertise in early Spanish coins.
Bill
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I contacted Aureo prior to their last auction, as they had one with an odd description (an era for that coin, for which no documentation exists). Their reply was as follow : Quote:
Lot 2329 has been the subject of discussion over a long period. In our auction catalogues we have usually indicated that it was struck in America during the reign of Carlos I. The Calicó catalogue points out that all the known items belong to a single shipwreck. Cayon classify them as forgeries . Sedwick is in doubt . things are not settled yet for the type. If you can get an XRF scan done on it, that could give great hints on its origin. I've been trying to get one after having avoided the type just do to so, but they tend to sell for too much (I shouldn't have missed the one from the old Cayon auction .) |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Realeswatcher I will be at the NYITL on Saturday. We should meet ...
John Lorenzo
United States
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Replies: 13 / Views: 2,348 |
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Posted 10/08/2015 6:49 pm
