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Replies: 16 / Views: 4,940 |
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Valued Member
United States
50 Posts |
While coin grading and encapsulation by third party grading ( TPG) has been common and apparently accepted by collectors for decades, the phenomenon of stamps being graded and encapsulated into protective holders is relatively new. Professional Stamp Experts (PSE) grades stamps and provides an option of placing them into protective holders or issuing only a paper certificate. Coin grading requires the coin go into a slab for obvious benefits of preservation and assurance. What is surprising to me is that with stamps there is a great amount of resistance to stamps being in slabs. Obviously the stamp cannot be placed into an album, but to me it seems there are many benefits of the slab from a preservation standpoint. Dealers buy and sell stamps in slabs at somewhat hefty discounts versus if they were simply graded with a paper certificate. It seems far fewer stamp collectors desire a slabbed stamp. So now my questions: Did coins experience anything similar in terms of resistance with the advent of TPG? How long did it take the coin market to accept grading and encapsulation of coins? Are there still collectors who insist on coins going into albums and buy only raw or pop them out of slabs? Do slabbed coins trade at discounts versus raw? I collect both coins and stamps and it seems the reverse is true for coins (raw coins are discounted). I appreciate the numismatic view, and I hope once the thread has matured, I can list the link to the discussion in the stamp community forum.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1316 Posts |
Love the question being posed! For my collection, I discount coins that are not TPG slabbed. I value the holder as protection and something to hold when viewing the coin, and appreciate the service of identification and grading. My rule of thumb is the coin speaks for itself, but that slab goes a long way in justifying a price. I collect coins from around the world dated in years of '82. As this covers MANY centuries from even more locations, it's hard be an expert on everything, so I rely on the TPG slabs as an important starting point in knowing what the coin is and coming to my own conclusions about it.
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Valued Member
United States
434 Posts |
A certified coin (first by certificate and later by TPG encapsulation) was developed as a means to trade certified coins on a sight-unseen for specific bid and ask prices. This was to emulate the stock market. It took years for dealers and collectors to accept this trading concept. You have to remember these were the pre-internet days and the only way to purchase sight-unseen was with a connection to the electronic exchange via a teleprinter (aka teletype machine). Grading of raw coins varied immensely and the only way to be sure of the grade was a visit to the seller or trust worthy seller sent the coin to you for inspection. I recommend reading a copy of The Comprehensive U.S. Silver Dollar Encyclopedia. This book was published in 1992 and it gives a perspective of the period of transition to the certified coin market. Quote:Did coins experience anything similar in terms of resistance with the advent of TPG? Dealers and collectors adapted to the change. Prior to the change, it was a learned skill to grade coins. Today inexperience collectors heavily reply on TPG for the grade. Grading is somewhat becoming a lost art. Those who can accurately grade raw coins have a money making skill set. You have to remember that each coin type has specific set of grading standards. Quote: Are there still collectors who insist on coins going into albums and buy only raw or pop them out of slabs? It's the collector's choice. The TPG encapsulated coin is an established commodity (can be sold or traded relatively easily). The raw coin requires steps (non-bias grading) to make it an established commodity. Quote: Do slabbed coins trade at discounts versus raw? I collect both coins and stamps and it seems the reverse is true for coins (raw coins are discounted). Eye-appeal and desire for possession drives the price for collectors. Dealers on the other hand want a commodity that can be later sold for profit. You can easily see this with flippers of U.S. Mint products. A TPG MS 70 or PF 70 enables it as a commodity for the coin market. Sport cards, specialty cards, comic books, stamps (as you know), currency, autographs, etc. have also followed the path of establishing itself as commodity that can readily solicit a bid or ask price.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5854 Posts |
I think there is still some resistance to TPG grading even in markets where it is mostly accepted. Even in a quick search of the forum, you will find mixed opinions on topics like raws vs slabbed and whether TPGs were good for the hobby. There are many collectors here on the forum who only buy raw or consistently break coins out of slabs. I am too young to offer any first hand experience but my guess is resistance has been around for a while. Some of the long time collectors and dealers can offer a better perspective. I'm not sure how long it took for TPGs to be generally accepted but they did help to fuel a bubble in the late 1980's. So maybe it might not have been too long for TPGs to gain acceptance. People tend not to make a big fuss about something especially if part of the reason why they are making money. I find that raw coins usually trade at a discount to slabbed coins. Raw coins are somewhat less desirable to those completing a registry set and are more risky than slabbed coins. You often hear people on the forum saying something along the lines of "why is such and such a coin not in a slab?" especially when it concerns a rare and valuable coin. Reputable slabbed coins mitigate some of the risk when it comes to condition and most of it when it comes to authenticity. Hope this helps. I wouldn't mind seeing a link to the discussion just to see it from the perspective of stamp collectors.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
You are after a numismatic point of view, and that is good and relevent but the stamp collectors will naturally express a philatelic point of view, and that has to be good and relevent for them.
You make the point that a slabbed stamp cannot be put in an album, and I agree with that. I have a few states series Australian stamps (New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Tasmania, Western Australia, Queensland), issued before Australian Federation in 1901. I am not expert enough to pick forgeries of the rarer stamps in these series. This is the reason why I keep these stamps in between Mylar flaps in an album. I can take a stamp out with tongs and closely examine it with my 10x loupe, normally used for coins or gemcutting.
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Valued Member
Netherlands
74 Posts |
Quote: Are there still collectors who insist on coins going into albums and buy only raw or pop them out of slabs? Whenever I buy a coin in a slab I immediately take it out. First of all, because I prefer to be able to actually have the coin in my hand, instead of looking at it through a window. Second, I find I cannot take good photos of a coin in a slab. Third, I like to have all my coins organised in albums, which is a bit hard with slabs. My experience is that Europeans in general aren't as fond of slabs as Americans are. It's rare to see coins in slabs at European auctions. I think that the goal of slabs (giving an unbiased opinion of the state of the coin) doesn't go well for older coins (i.e. non-machine made). A coin with a very weak strike that never circulated can have a much higher rating than a very well-struck but circulated coin. However, the latter one often is much more appealing to me: you can actually see what's on the coin... I don't expect coins ever to trade at a discount when in a slab, it's after all pretty easy to take them out. I can imagine though that this is trickier with stamps; it's way easier for them to damage in the operation...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
The OP did not limit his question to US coins or the US market so thank you qxy for providing your perspective. Much of my 8 reales collection has come from Spanish auction houses and they almost never offer encapsulated coins.
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5172 Posts |
My own perspective is "slab? what slab?" Even at the higher-end coin shops, I hardly ever see a coin in a slab (and the few that I do see are US coins in US TPG slabs). Nice capsule, certainly. Holder with lots of random pictures, definitely (though these tend to be overpriced). Slab, no. Heck, I'm pretty sure I've seen a $500+ ancient gold in nothing but a labeled 2x2 (almost wanted to buy it, but didn't have anywhere near the money). Minus the first paragraph (about the organization), I basically agree with qxy: Europeans (Russians in my case) just don't deal with slabs much (just got the funny mental image of someone trying to stuff a 52 gram copper 5 kopek in a US-style slab holder). On the first paragraph... the sort of coins I collect are low-end enough that they don't need slabs in the first place. If I ever got my hands on a slabbed coin, I probably would've kept it there just for the sheer novelty. (Incidentally, I don't use albums much either.)
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5828 Posts |
 Why dont we get the Stamp Forum involved in this!
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New Member
United States
1 Posts |
Stamp people dont like slabs, fortunatly stamps are unique looking enough that a picture on a certificate is considered just as good. Mostly I do stamps nowdays but most of my ebay feedback comes from coins, Slabs started before the internet was widespread and is good for making sure what you buy is real but as far as grading it has way changed over the years. For good or bad we stuck with it now but stamp people dont want stamps in slabs.
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New Member
United States
1 Posts |
Coins are encapsulated to ensure a buyer's confidence that the grade and other information on the slab pertains to that specific coin and no other. Stamps are unique enough individually - details of the perforation teeth, centering, potential plate varieties, etc. - that a certificate with a high quality photo of the stamp accomplishes the same thing. I've never bought a slabbed stamp, but I've also heard that the slabs can trap moisture inside, damaging the stamp over time. Stamps need to breathe a little bit.
There could be some advantages to slabbing stamps. Stamp certificates attest to the authenticity of a stamp and usually call out any defects or damages. However, that doesn't mean that the stamp didn't get damaged since the last time a cert was issued, so many expensive stamps will get certed every time they're sold for that reason. If it were slabbed, theoretically that wouldn't be necessary.
Regardless, I can't see slabbed stamps taking off any time soon. Anyone who collects anything - stamps, coins, horsehoes, cars, etc - cares about the presentation. Nearly all collectors think stamps look best in an album or a stock book. An album of slabbed coins, while much bulkier than one of raw coins, at least isn't *too* foreign looking to a coin collector. Slabs make coins, what, maybe 5x thicker in an album, maybe 10x for really thin coins like gold dollars and silver three-cent pieces? At least we're talking within the same order of magnitude here. A slab would probably make a stamp 100x thicker to display. It's a bridge too far and the whole display concept is just too foreign to a stamp collector. Slabbing has its place within the coin community, and its done a good job of assuring liquidity in the coin market. Certing of stamps accomplishes the same purpose and the slabbing of stamps is simply not (as) necessary and is unattractive to the vast majority of stamp collectors.
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Valued Member
 United States
50 Posts |
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Moderator
 United States
187702 Posts |
A cross-over thread! I had to post something. My first post ever over there. 
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Valued Member
 United States
50 Posts |
So there are collectors in both the coin and stamp camps who prefer unencapsulated. Are coins less delicate than stamps and so taking a coin out of a slab is less risky than a stamp? Say you have an MS68-69 coin in a holder (since there are no paper certificates for graded coins they are all in slabs). If you take the coin out of the slab and handle carefully but drop it or touch the surface with a coin glove while putting into an album... How likely is the coin to drop a grade?
On the stamp thread I posted an image of a pretty rare stamp high graded with a minor corner bend after grading that appeared to lose about $3000 in value as a result.
I remove coins from slabs but I collect XF, AU, and MS 63 grades. Would a coin collector ever remove an ms 68-70 coin from a slab?
Edited by Crouse27 10/22/2015 4:29 pm
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Moderator
 United States
187702 Posts |
Quote: How likely is the coin to drop a grade? The grade is subjective. You can take it out of the slab, immediately have it graded again, and it just might come back higher or lower. Quote: Would a coin collector ever remove an ms 68-70 coin from a slab? While I would like to say that I would, the more honest answer is that I would never buy an MS-68 to MS-70 coin, slabbed or not. As of now, the only slabbed coins I will ever (need to) buy are low to mid-grade key dates or other coins that benefit from authentication (think 1909-S VDB cent, 1916-D dime, Liberty Seated dollars, etc.). Yes, those slabs will be cracked and the coins placed in the appropriate Dansco.
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Valued Member
 United States
50 Posts |
Thanks jbuck I am with you as I remove coins from slabs myself, but the coins I collect have hundreds to thousands in that certified population grade and many thousands more in higher grades. I typically only look at PCGS and NGC statistics. Now thinking about a 16-d Merc in MS66-MS67, would any collector (some now argue investor at this level) crack the coin and put it in an album and not worry about accidentally lowering it to MS65? Or a 2009 Lincoln Cent in MS70 for that matter? These coins are extremely low populations with virtually no coins graded higher. I also handle all coins cracked out of slabs with coin gloves. And if I did drop it, my guess is I would not lower it from an au55 to au53 with reasonable care, as the grade difference is about wear. I save the TPG inserts with my coins, so I have a form of paper certificate (not that a future buyer would care too much). And I know some coins can regrade differently with multiple submissions to third party. With the Merc and the Lincoln Cent, my gut tells me they could be damaged and only a fool, albeit a rich fool, would crack them because even with proper handling it would take only a minuscule event to impact the grade, as it is less about wear and more about marks and reflectivity of the surfaces. I am probing because is this a specific trend that stamps may follow given time. A classic stamp graded 100 Never hinged (pop 1/0), or used 98 (pop 1/1) becoming equivalents to the highest graded coins that one would insist remain within slabs for handling, preservation, and yes financial reasons.
Edited by Crouse27 10/24/2015 07:28 am
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Replies: 16 / Views: 4,940 |