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Is This Genuine And What's A Reasonable Offer? Spanish Silver W/ Chop Marks

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vermontensium's Avatar
United States
16679 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2015  01:54 am Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this topic Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Always wanted a chop marked coin.
Thanks in advance

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161877695052?ru=http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html%3F_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=161877695052&_rdc=1
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UKPennyHunter's Avatar
Spain
239 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2015  03:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UKPennyHunter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The seller looks more than reputable, along with their 14 day return you should be fine, take it to a dealer when you get it if you're worried.

Can you explain more about the 'chop marks', I can see what they are but what's the history there?
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atscaper's Avatar
Canada
89 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2015  06:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add atscaper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I feel like I've seen that one or one like up up for auction in the not too distant past. May have been in a post or I just stumbled on it.
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
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 Posted 11/04/2015  08:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I like the swastika (but not Nazi-related) to the SE of the middle. It is a Chinese good-luck symbol adapted from Indian cultures in the first few centuries AD.
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mysilveryears's Avatar
United States
1888 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2015  09:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mysilveryears to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
He calls it 'great detail' but the photos are poor and the date is scarcely visible?
Chopmarked coins of this series are not that scarce. Unless you are especially enamored of the marks on this one, I'd wait for a nicer example. Or make a low to middling offer.
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jfransch's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 11/04/2015  10:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would hold out for a much nicer host coin. Unless there are some specific chops that this coin has, you can find a much higher grade host coin with interesting chops for less than the minimum bid on this coin. PM me for more details if interested.
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jgenn's Avatar
United States
1156 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2015  10:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Because these have been, and continue to be, counterfeited in great quantities, it's not really possible to determine if it's genuine from just photos of the obverse and reverse. You need an accurate weight and need to examine the edge carefully (a determination of specific gravity would be warranted on an example of any significant value).

The chopmarks would have been stamped on the coin by South Asian, primarily Chinese, money changers to certify that they had examined the coin and vouched for its silver content. The Chinese market was closed to outsiders until the Opium Wars of the mid-nineteenth century. Prior to that, the only import that was routinely accepted was silver and the preferred specie was the Spanish 8 reales. Several Western nations covertly issued unoffical restrikes of 8 reales in order to get the most value for their silver -- these are some of the hardest to distinguish from genuine issues.

I don't think the average dealer has the expertise to judge the authenticity with any great authority. Bob Gurney, who posts here as swamperbob, has written a book about these counterfeits called "The Un-real Reales". I highly recommend it for anyone interested in collecting portrait 8 reales of the Spanish Empire.
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Collects82's Avatar
United States
1316 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2015  10:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Can you explain more about the 'chop marks', I can see what they are but what's the history there?


Chop marks appear on coins that circulated in China, usually silver and especially Spanish Colonial 8 Reales and US Trade dollars that were minted for use for international trade. The chopmark was placed by a merchant as a way to validate the coin. It is seen regularly on 18th and 19th century silver dollars that had trade coming on with China. I've seen a few Seated Libery Halfs with them. Morgans seem to be rare.

Some collectors think they are damage, but a lot of collectors appreciate the history of the coin and there is a solid community of collectors that seek them out. There is enough demand for silver dollars with chop marks that they don't really hurt the value of a coin, some sellers might contend it makes it easier to sell because of the additional history in the coin.
Edited by Collects82
11/04/2015 12:01 pm
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Finn235's Avatar
United States
6130 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2015  11:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's also worth noting that chop marks are still used to an extent. US $50 and $100 that leave the country in foreign commerce very frequently come back covered in little stamps.

But as for the coin in question, I do agree that you could perhaps do a little better for your money.
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UKPennyHunter's Avatar
Spain
239 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2015  11:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UKPennyHunter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Collects82, brilliant description and answered my question in it's entirety, many thanks! A great bit of history, I'd never heard of it before.

It'll make for some light reading tonight
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