| Author |
 Replies: 25 / Views: 3,256 |
|
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
I have been looking for a nice Ionia coin featuring a bee since I first took an interest in ancient coins. These are usually AE, in bad shape or expensive. (not to forget not the most common coin out there) I really didn't intend to buy anything more this side of Christmas but seeing this little beauty I couldn't resist. Not only has it the benefit of a nicely centred bee, it is also in silver. I was also interested in a Zeugitana coin, finding the horse standing in front of palm tree a pleasing reverse. This goes one better with a stag in front of palm tree (which is like a horse but with horns thrown in for free)  Would anyone have a reference number for it? Looks like BMC 122 perhaps? |
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
Really nice coin, David. Congratulations on a super pick-up.
These usually have E - F (epsilon - phi), respectively, in the upper fields around the bee, don't they? Would yours be a variant?
|
|
Moderator
 United States
23731 Posts |
Beautiful coin, congrats.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
David, pease don't read too much into this...it's just a question: any concerns about the several small holes, lower left area of the obverse (on the wing and beads of the border)? I just noticed them.
Edited by Kamnaskires
11/07/2015 09:04 am
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
Btw, David, an update: it's Arados, Phoenicia, I believe, not Ephesos...thus the different obverse devices.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1194 Posts |
Bob is right , the name of the city is on the reverse : ARADION , on the obverse is normally at left the date and at right a monogram ; I think you can date it more exactly 170/160 BC , as reference : BMC about nrs 150/160 ; Ephesos has nearly the same coins , but a little earlier I think .It is a very beautiful coin and IMO more difficult to find than a Eph.coin.Congratulations.albert
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
OK well thanks for the input. The coin came from V-coins... normally I just trust purchases from this source ( ebay I would have really scrutinised the coin before purchase) but now I am a little worried. The coin was a good price (183 Euro, £135) which correct me if I am wrong seems a very good price for such a coin? The wear on the body of the bee is fair enough for a two thousand year old coin, but the little holes around the 8 o'clock are worrying... now I am seeing a line running 3 - 5 o'clock and a diagonal line running directly across the face of the coin from 10 - 3 o'clock. If course a little porosity doesn't necessarily mean it is fake since the blanks were cast in some cases, and the line on the right hand side, what could that be? The miss attributing of the coin doesn't inspire confidence either (though I cannot find any coin with exactly the same marks either side of the bee, so maybe it isn't so easy. You might well be right with the Arados, I was thinking it a magistrates name but it does appear to be Arados. Anyway, now I wonder should I be asking questions about authenticity? I would be disappointed not to have the coin, but more so if it turns out to be wrong. Thoughts? Edited by DavidUK
11/07/2015 12:48 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
I sent a message to the dealer asking for assurance about authenticity and pointed out the features that worry me. I hope I caused no affront but better to be sure before the coin is shipped. I await his feedback.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
Quote:
...a little porosity doesn't necessarily... What concerns me, David, is that porosity or pitting would likely not manifest just in a few high points of the relief. I wonder too about the elongated hole on the stag's antler at right, although maybe that's nothing. Hopefully my concerns are for naught. Initially I thought the line you refer to might have been caused by a die crack, but I don't see how a die crack would have melded so cleanly into the bee's body...I don't know what to make of that.  I'll be curious to know what the dealer tells you. Does anyone else here have concerns about these things? As for attribution, I believe the monograms/letters, sloppily transposed on your example, suggest BMC 152-4: https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=108480https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=107013 |
|
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
Thanks Bob for your help... I too looked at this attribution on Wildwinds after you pointed me in the right direction.
Looking at the reverse you mention the antlers (which I also thought look wrong) and the links you supply there compare the lettering of Arados, so much cleaner and better defined than mine.
I contacted both the dealer (asking for assurances) and also V-coins support for a second opinion.
Really I hope they both tell me "the coin is legit" because I really want it and feel it is fairly priced, but I am starting to think that maybe it isn't right.
Sometimes something is too good to be true. There is only one other example on Vcoins and that is 10 times the price (£1200) it is cleaner but it shows none of this type of thing. If the coin turns out to be a dud I will feel like I am being robbed of an excellent deal.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
I hate raising doubts for a Coin Community Family member. I hope all works out to your satisfaction, David. You might want to refer the dealer and VCoins folks to this thread so they can follow our train of thought. Best wishes!
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
If you are right Bob you have done me a service, no need to feel bad.
Other opinions welcome, is the coin good or bad?
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Netherlands
1204 Posts |
To be honest: at first sight before reading your story, I had doubts about the authenticity. Fingers crossed!
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
Well I was given a refund, since I am a bit of a sceptic I couldn't bring myself to believe again in the coin. The dealer did give me a full and frank explanation though and examples of these faults on known coins. The holes do seem to appear on a few of this kind of coin, die breaks on others but in combination they just give me uneasy feelings.
In part of his extensive email he gave me the following information:
Arguments in favor of the coin:
1) it was bought from a reputable auction house (Jean Elsen, located in Brussel). But this is of course not a 100% valid argument since auction houses can make mistakes too.
2) As an attachment I send you some pictures of Arados drachms that depict the same features:
- in the file Arados 2.jpg you'll see a coin that has a distinct line across the field, which is the result of a die break. The lines on the coin in question might be the result of this too as I don't see anything suspicious on the edge of the coin.
- in the files Arados 3.jpg and Arados 4.jpg you see two coins that have similar small holes on raised areas as the coin in question. In the file Arados 3 you can see the holes on the letters on the reverse. In the file Arados 4 you can see the holes both on the letters on the reverse and on the dotted border on the obverse.
Arguments against the coin
1) the lines and holes you mention
2) a certain crude style
3) the feeling that something might not be right (result of 1 and 2)
All said and done, I personally do think it is a genuine coin (it is actually better in hand than the photo's show).
But since I can't be 100% sure and this coin clearly is subject to discussion for reasons I do understand, I propose to do the following in order to avoid any disappointment:
- I refund you your money
- I ship the coin to you for free. If indeed a genuine coin, which I think it is, you'll have a nice addition to your collection.
If it's not genuine, it will have cost you nothing.
P.S.: if I had already shipped the coin to you and you were having doubts about authenticity upon receiving it, you could of course have returned it for a full refund. I only want customers to be satisfied with their purchases, so that's not something I fuss about. Also, my policy in general is that my customers will always get a full refund if a coin turns out not to be authentic. Of course I try to avoid selling non authentic coins as that would ruin my reputation!
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
I am disappointed to not own it, if I believed in it then I think it would be a wonderful addition to my collection but I think after all is said and done my doubts would always take the joy out of the purchase.
Maybe I have some fakes in my collection, maybe I don't but I don't have any known fakes or suspicious coins. That's the way it is going to stay.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
Good move, David. I commend the dealer for the professional response.
Hopefully one day soon you'll add a bee/stag to your collection, and you'll feel entirely confident about its authenticity.
|
| |
Replies: 25 / Views: 3,256 |
Posted 11/07/2015 08:57 am
