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 Replies: 59 / Views: 6,028 |
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Valued Member
146 Posts |
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My opinion (note that word) from their past record is they did not abandon the idea, but only shelved it for awhile. Some businessmen want to milk the public for everything they can get. I predict one day there will be adverts such as:
"The new Compu-Grading system is totally impartial and 100% accurate since it eliminates the human-opinion-factor. You can never be perfectly sure your slabbed coins were graded impartially until they bear the new "Compu-Graded" labels. At only 30.00 a slab, you can now sleep peacefully knowing you have the REAL grade." And just think! In 30 more years we can claim we need to re-slab everything yet again because we have upgraded the Compu-Grade system algorithms for more acuracy. More re-slabbing... and at only 30.00 each!] |
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Valued Member
146 Posts |
I DID IT!!! That was just practice above. Thanks Earl!! Sometimes you can teach an old dog something.
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Valued Member
146 Posts |
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And... you are the first person I have met (not saying there are no others) who were collecting back before the TPGs who has not agreed TPGs have focused the hobby onto the keys while relegating the rest to a status of junk silver. The focus has ALWAYS been on keys. Perhaps more so today because it is not worth spending $$$ on most of the circs in any denomination to have then slabbed. Quote:
A wise person always is -- no matter what level of expertise that person reaches I assure everyone here that I learn something everyday about coins from most of you. Sometimes I need to change my mind (Example: I thought Compu-Grade was still around after a quick skim - thanks for the gentle correction) No let's see if I'm a quick learner and the quotes appear correctly... |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1304 Posts |
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Well alrightee then, that's a great idea. Except...at the time they posted the SOTA fake - for all extents and purposes, was an attractive example of a GENUINE coin because fakes struck from that counterfeit die passed all four TPGS authenticators Uh, this makes no sense. A coin is still fake even if a TPG cant figure it out. Maybe this s-158 fake is a bad example for the points you are trying to make because it being fake is blatantly obvious to copper collectors not least because of the Y but also the giant circle impression on the bust that doesn't exist anywhere in the decades upon decades of die variety studies published. Some of the others found are more deceptive than this one. Edited by EFLargeCents
12/27/2015 11:06 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
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The focus has ALWAYS been on keys. Perhaps more so today because it is not worth spending $$$ on most of the circs in any denomination to have then slabbed. I agree the focus has always been on keys - but just not to the extent that came along years after the TPGs came into the picture and people started to accept them more. I remember going to local coin shops and seeing display cases *multiple shelves) of trays of each denomination laid out by date and MM in 2X2s. Sometimes there were two or three of the same date/MM stacked up to choose from. The coins on display were just average ones. When you asked to look at a date/MM, the dealer would generally get the tray out, lay it on the counter, and let you browse. If you wanted a better condition one, you could ask the dealer and they would bring out the better stuff. I remember a trip to the coin shop used to be a long, fun, browsing/buying trip At least in my area this does not happen anymore. A majority of what is in display cases is either keys, slabbed, or high end pieces. In fact one local shop (Gettysburg) definitely has the space for layouts like this - but it seems there is no call for it. Most of his cases are empty - very little to browse. You feel funny walking in b/c now there needs to be a distinct purpose for going in - other than the fun of casual browsing/buying. BTW - good job figuring out the quotes. I usually just type them, and from your posts it sounds like this is what you do, but there is a button for putting them in:  Quote:
- thanks for the gentle correction You are welcome, but thankfully this forum attracts people who are generally like minded in this repect, and one of the reasons I enjoy being in the CCF family. Although we mess up (not that I understand "we" includes "I") CCF is normally a place where we truly enjoy helping one another rather than uselessly throwing stones. This mindset is very rare nowadays. |
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Valued Member
146 Posts |
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but also the giant circle impression on the bust that doesn't exist anywhere in the decades upon decades of die variety studies published The mark is impact damage on ONE COIN (the model) it is NOT a DIE MARKER for a genuine example - only the fake! |
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Valued Member
146 Posts |
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I remember going to local coin shops and seeing display cases *multiple shelves) of trays of each denomination laid out by date and MM in 2X2s. Sometimes there were two or three of the same date/MM stacked up to choose from. The coins on display were just average ones. Good instructor...took a few attempts to figure it out. You are writing about the good-old-days. Collecting was fun and more coins to "cherry" for grade/variety. Those who did not know how to grade/authenticate were out of luck; however, there was usually a good-ol-boy who everyone turned to. Walter B. was one of them. Poor guy had a constant bunch around him (I was one) picking his brain. I HATE SLABS! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1304 Posts |
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The mark is impact damage on ONE COIN (the model) it is NOT a DIE MARKER for a genuine example - only the fake! There is a significant and obvious difference in appearance between something struck from a damaged die and something damaging a coin after it was struck. |
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Valued Member
59 Posts |
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There is a significant and obvious difference in appearance between something struck from a damaged die and something damaging a coin after it was struck. Yep, 100% true. I learned that in grading/authentication nursery school. You should expand on that as it will be very helpful for all of us to learn the difference. So,on one hand, if that spot has the same surface as the rest of the coin and...the surface of the counterfeit is "original, as made" then the TPG's who did not become suspicious and give the coin a closer look Failed all of us. On the other hand, if the surface of that coin has been artificially circulated, I'll give them a pass this time. |
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Valued Member
59 Posts |
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Which was why I spent years nagging at them because their guarantees DIDN'T specifically cover authenticity. For their first twenty years all the guarantee specifically spelled out was what you options were and how you would be compensated if the GRADING was found to be wrong. The ONLY place the word authenticity could be found in the guarantee was in the title. Very interesting. Do you know of a specific case where NGC, PCGS, ANACS, or ICG has not "Made Good" on an authentication error? I watch/listen/read ("like a hawk") to discover any rumors about TPGS and have not heard of them "ducking" responsibility on an authentication error. Since grading is an educated opinion there is some "wiggle room" that may save them some money. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
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Very interesting. Do you know of a specific case where NGC, PCGS, ANACS, or ICG has not "Made Good" on an authentication error? No I don't, and even during the whole time I was doing the nagging I would point out that they had always stood behind their product and made good on the few fakes that got past them. But that was no excuse for not revising the guarantee because as written it would always give them a loophole if they ever came across a coin they didn't want to stand behind. If they were always willing to stand behind te authenticity, why wouldn't they SAY so and put it in writing? It might have been an oversight at first, but why spend 20 years dragging their feet on revising it? Especially when someone is pointing out the oversight. |
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Valued Member
59 Posts |
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No I don't, and even during the whole time I was doing the nagging I would point out that they had always stood behind their product and made good on the few fakes that got past them. But that was no excuse for not revising the guarantee because as written it would always give them a loophole if they ever came across a coin they didn't want to stand behind. If they were always willing to stand behind te authenticity, why wouldn't they SAY so and put it in writing? It might have been an oversight at first, but why spend 20 years dragging their feet on revising it? Especially when someone is pointing out the oversight. Sounds like that is the answer for nothing in print. I agree it should be . That probably means none of the TPGS print that guarantee either! It's an EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT "THING" that won't stand up if they don't wish to honor it. I'll bet if you sent a letter/sent an email over there or asked to speak with one of the principals on the phone listed on the NGC website you would get a satisfactory answer. I think I'll try. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Skippy did you notice I said for the first twenty years? They did finally break down and include a written guarantee of authenticty around 2005 or 2006. All of the major services now include a written authenticity guarantee. And they no longer guarantee the color won't change and that they aren't responsible if the coin goes bad in the holder, in the case of NGC attributions are not guaranteed etc.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
What scares me is that increasingly the counterfeit coin makers are going after common dates/mintmarks, because they know those coins are less likely to be scrutinized. A guy walks into your shop with a ziploc bag full of 20-30 Morgans that he says he just inherited, and there's 4 1893-S in there and a few CC's...you're probably going to be more suspicious than if the dates are all 1884-O, 1921, etc. Reason this comes to mind is last night surfing the Bay I found a very obviously fake 1884-O Morgan. I thought for a moment about why bother faking an 1884-O until I realized that if the quality was better it would be much easier to pass into the trade than a key or semi-key which is going to get much more intense scrutiny. Same thing with copper -- guy comes in with a bag full of worn 1793 Chain cents...yeah right. Guy comes in with a bag full of worn 1798/1802/1803 Draped Bust cents..much more plausible. Without the TPGs I'm not sure the coin dealers would have survived this long. With Internet sales becoming more and more of a dealer's revenue, collectors and investors alike don't have the option to touch, inspect, handle, and "check out" the inventory. As a dealer you're asking them to take your word that your 1893-S Morgan is the real deal. You're also competing against every dealer everywhere online, not just the shop down the road a few miles. In addition, you've got to back up what you sell with guarantees or else you'll get charged back by paypal/eBay or even sued if someone decides your coin is a fake. Easiest way to do this is through TPG's. Hopefully the TPG's do not start falling victim to more fakes, because if confidence erodes, it will be disastrous in the long run. I remember the coin shops as a kid. Books full of coins in 2x2's, junk drawers, 10x face value silver trays, literal bags full of Wheat cents and Buffalo nickels...I could get lost in there for hours. Often did. I don't think I even saw my first slab until the late 90s, and they were mostly holding Morgans, colonials and gold. Unfortunately, dealer's gotta make a living, not just keep kids busy for a few hours, and the dealer's Internet/web presence is generating the traffic and the sales these days. Dealers gain several things from TPG's: purchasing power, confidence, profits, a guarantee to back up their merchandise, a (fairly) accurate indication of grade, easy inventory management, and the ability to turn over inventory quickly and keep fresh coins in the cases. I don't blame the dealers for carrying mostly slabs now; it would be terrible business sense not to. In the old days -- we did not have someone come in the door and say "I've got $200,000, what rare coins should I buy?" -- now these days you do get investors who come in who don't know a lick about coins, but will drop enough dough to keep you flush with cash for weeks as long as they feel comfortable and confident buying your coins. This is why I think if the TPG's can't keep at least some level of trust and faith in their product -- the knowledge that you are not buying a fake -- then times are going to get hard for everyone. Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Posted 12/27/2015 10:10 am
