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New Record For The Sale Of A Gnl Listed Counterfeit.

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jgenn's Avatar
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 Posted 01/13/2016  2:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Joe Lang at Stephen Album says it weighs 26.78gm
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 Posted 01/14/2016  02:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
-- John, Karl Stephens happened to mention that he sold someone a Central Amer. Rep. CC 8 Reales at the show... IIRC, he said for $350. He specifically mentioned it was not a counterfeit collector, but rather a CAR collector who had never seen one and just liked it.

Also, a 1785 GeoIII BOE piece in brass... I saw a 1795 brass (forget if it was Mex or Potosi) w/oval stamp in Aureo Calico's case. I know you've bought from their guy Lluis before... I talked to him (sort of through a translator) about a another topic and he gave me a very honest answer, which was appreciated.

Civitas does procure some interesting oddball stuff... I looked at a CC cob they had (an ex-Sedwick piece, I believe it said), that was sort of in the the style of an 1810s Venez. psuedo-cob 2R, and was that size... but marked with an "8" denom. between the pillars (perhaps an Indian forgery). He tends to be, though... somewhat pricey.

Did you see the silver struck Morelos 8R he had there?


-- Bob, on the pieces you were selling... On the better Mex. bust 8E, I wonder if the Pablo Gerber Mex. gold sale Heritage ran several months back may have sucked some wind out those short-term. RE: those Republic 8E... like with common bust 8E, the market has softened as gold has come down... and can be a tight margin to begin to begin with b/c they are kinda close to bullion. Of course, you know they'd ask $1000-1100 for them in their case.

God, those Durango 1819ish-1822 are a tangle to figure out... good note about identical punch elements vs. varied hand-engraved. War. of Ind. in general... I picked up an 1814 Guadalajara recently that is a distinct atypical bust style, yet certainly regal. Apparently there were FOUR distinct busts for the Ga pieces that year? What was the need for that many punches?!

"I bet his next stop was the row of authenticators from each of the grading services to see if I was right"

Wonder what variety of verdicts that brought... hopefully they could at least recognize the ubiquitous 1832.
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 Posted 01/14/2016  08:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Realeswatcher - Yes I was at the NYITL from 10AM to 2PM. I did talk to Karl about the CAR CCC 8R piece but I am not sure if it was the same Cast Silver Central American Republic piece I picked up from Civitas recently. From memory I think it was of this type (Cast Silver). I have analyzed my piece and it mimics the Cast Silver WOI pieces (1811-1813) in that it is 92% Ag, crude edges, aged piece, etc.. From my instincts no flavor at all of it being a Modern Forgery - none at all ... we have a lot of information of the tough times during this period so is it some undocumented necessity or emergency money? My instincts said to purchase it and my knowledge of Central America is about as advanced as North Africa ... LOL. Mine was only $100. Not sure what Carlos Jara feels of these issues? Was he the Karl Stephens buyer on the piece you mention in your post? CJ normally does not collect CCC's from my conversations with him but may purchase coins of CCC's on a whim. He would be my guess and he was present at NYITL and the piece sold early during this NYITL event.
Of course I saw the A&C Brass GIII GNL type CCC 8R at $200 ... but I left it for someone else. I had other buys more pressing at the show. I told Luis to put it on E-Bay and use the GNL book. He's been fully educated ... LOL.
I picked up a nice 1817 WOI 8R from Civitas at a good price but that Karl Stephens piece at $250 I mentioned earlier in this thread? was interesting but ran out of cash. This was a 8R CCC Spanish piece. I should have ... LOL. At the show I picked up the following:

1. Cayon an incredible ENSAIE from their last auction. BTW in that other counterstamp circle which appears empty is a RANCON bird seen clearly and of a Supreme Junta style - see Gerber 132 for his double stamp ENSAIE. Talking to Mike Dunnigan he feels the stamp was just broken and the combination of that and going into a previous ENSAIE stamp. Under a stereo microscope its genuine but none of this is mentioned by Cayon.
2. 1817 WOI Restrike. XF.
3. Four CCC Pistareens - one 1709 Pretender the others XF choice - all 50-90% silvered. Starting a personal die study to an eventual paper - not sure - how rare are Pistareen CCC's? Of the cross-types only (1708-1770 or so).
4. LVO 1811 WOI - lay-a-way. XF. Incredible central striking!

Karl - also had one or two C&R CCC 8R's which as Gurney always suspected of the Ag electrodeposition type. Appearance-wise a thin silver film to the eye and v.uniform. I ran some tests in my lab for my new book on other examples and do confirm high silver readings than normal and their microstructure do show a more uniform type application than a Birmingham Sheffield on the base metal surface. Its difficult due to lack of time restraints and with an OLDER machine with the analysis beam on not picking up the underlying base metals (i.e., Cu,Zn & Sn) interfering with the the purity of the Ag electroplated surface layer.

JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
01/14/2016 08:41 am
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 Posted 01/14/2016  6:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Skippypnb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Colonial John, Please post the title of your new book. Thanks.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
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 Posted 01/14/2016  7:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Forgotten Coins of the North American Colonies - 25th Anniversary Edition.

Available probably around November, 2016.

Actually meeting with the Anton family this Saturday to discuss publishing options ( Amazon Books - B&W, Color (different publisher - more high end binding, etc. numismatist copy, E-Media version).

A tribute to William Anton and his original 1992 edition of CCCs - which was predominately English/Irish 1/2d as we currently see in the new Coleman book (not seen yet). My book will be a lot different <BG>.

The entire book is contemporary circulating counterfeits and heavy into Material Analysis and a discussion of the base metals used and silvering/gilding, etc..


JPL

Edited by colonialjohn
01/14/2016 7:14 pm
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 Posted 01/14/2016  9:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
colonialjohn, I was very happy to receive my first CCC from you in the mail today. Will this specimen (1756 8R) be mentioned in your new book?
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 Posted 01/15/2016  06:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe I have a similar one of that TYPE (Pillar) in my Foreign CCC 1500-1800 section.

Its a coin before its time as in my lifetime in this field (10 years) I have seen maybe (4-5) true Dos Mundos CCCs.

During my Kleeberg collecting days I never considered anything outside the Carolus III,IV or Ferdinand VII realm and it was mostly these 2 reales off-metals which sparked my interest.

At that time prior to 2008-2010 Stacks/Bowers JPL Collection dumps I was still heavily into U.S. Colonials - as you may know ...

JPL
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 Posted 01/17/2016  10:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to realeswatcher for setting us straight on the 1756 8R not being a contemporary counterfeit.
Edited by jgenn
01/17/2016 10:50 am
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