1788 Chile 2 Reales, Kleeberg Type Counterfeit

Stay tuned ... late tonight I will give you the Kleeberg number and its diagnostics. NICE!

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
New Jersey

In the meantime go to Stacks/Bowers and in their past auctions go to their November 16, 2012 and see the David Wnuck Collection starting with Lot 6896.

They go obviously for more money than GNL pieces since they have been cataloged longer ... and have a larger following. Also and as INCREDIBLE as it may sound old time Mexican collectors prior to the GNL book never thought contemporary circulating counterfeits as collectible. They consider them annoyances or issues to be avoided ... but this is changing withe the GNL book on these CCC 8R's.

But it will take time ... CCC GNL Type 1's are VERY collectible ... some are starting to get the message in the MNA. It will take time ... right now its like Eric Newman and Robert Vlack in the 50 & 60's with Bungtown's (i.e., a term originating in the American Journal of Numismatics in terms of CCC's being imported from England to the U.S. Colonies and being re-energized by Newman in his early writings) as it relates to English/Irish CCC 1/2d and 1/4d's. In other words MNA members need to consider these almost as HISTORICAL as War of Independence Issues. I did say almost ... <BG>.

That took 30-40 years until Anton came out with his ground-breaking book in 1992 (Forgotten Coins) ... BTW ... my new book takes off on this cryptic book produced in 1992. Cryptic? Yes ... all pictures and no words ... LONG STORY.

When these first surfaced with collectors like Mike Ringo & Ed Saraffian (North American Reference Collection - Stacks) we probably thought there were like 50-75 varieties. With now my Part 3 in my new book (due out 11/2016) the varieties are around 150-155. Most are Rarity 7+-8 (3-4 known) with about 1/3 currently UNIQUE. This 1788 piece is around $100-up depending on the selling venue (E-Bay or Stacks/Bowers). Their characteristics are generally off-metal, Plain Edge, Medal Turn Die Axis and DO NOT include the debased silver issues which are too common and not worth a PREMIUM as withe the off-metal brass, German silver and copper Kleebergs.

The infamous EARLY BIRD last year sold at over $1,000. The current record is $1,725.00. But they have come down due primarily of their infrequency at auction due to their rarity and the discovery of more varieties and most are in the $100-500 range depending on condition, crudeness and rarity (i.e., UNIQUE?).

There have been three major auctions on Kleebergs (Ringo,Ed Sarrafian & Wnuck). All by Stacks/Bowers. The Saraffian was called the North American Reference Collection.

All Kleebergs ALMOST ALWAYS bring more money than their regal counterparts in terms of grade, mint mark, assayer and condition.


JPL

Thanks for the info John. I haven't been able to find another. I did find this one attributed as 88C http://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...gh-132375928

It has similarities but does not match the Wnuck coin completely whereas my coin does. It's also very light weight. Kleeberg notes 3 examples with weights from the high 5 gram to low 7 gram range, my coin is 6.24 grams, and the one in the link is only 4.64. And ideas?

Maybe I'm not reading it correctly, but why does the Kleeberg reference give three reference weights attributed to "MKR" (Ringo) I assumed that was three individual pieces.

Thanks for the clarity John. I'm sure researching these pieces must be very difficult with the scarcity of information and specimens.

I purchased it online, was being sold as a genuine coin with not so clear pictures. I only realized what it was when I had it in hand.

John are you positive the alloy is German Silver? That alloy dates to 1835 in England and about 1830 in Germany at the very earliest. Have you isolated Paktong (classed as a Cupro-nickel) as a distinct alloy which could date back to the early 1700s or Brittania metal (a pewter) which dates to 1769 or 1770.

Either of those two alloys could have been used for a US colonial era circulating counterfeit like the 1788 Chile 2 reales. German silver would place production of the coin well after the US was independent and even AFTER the date for the end of the Spanish Colonial era in the Americas. It would be classified as a contemporary circulating counterfeit but from the later portion of that period.

I am still of the opinion that the CCC group needs to be divided into two distinct phases pre and post 1830. That date serves as a convenient dividing point for different technologies, different alloy types and often different locations where the coins were used.

In 1830 or later the most likely target for use was the US. That is where I would believe such a coin circulated. Before that date many other locations would have been receptive markets for the coin.

The almost complete lack of tarnish could point to either of the earlier alloys. German silver will discolor and stain rather easily.

John my point is that the imported alloy from China Paktong is NOT actually German silver. It is like Britannia metal a different alloy with a different composition but a similar appearance. When you say German silver you are dealing with the German's attempts to re-create Chinese Paktong. The alloys are different slightly different. Paktong does not always contain zinc above a trace (accidental level). There is substantial confusion of this term because people use Nickel silver (a misnomer) as a catch all category that includes both Paktong and German silver.

With XRF you need to get the signature of English Patkong pre-1830 (some pieces are hallmarked specifically for that alloy) and isolate the main and trace elements. I know museums have started to refer to the alloy as cupro-nickel no longer giving it a linkage to the German silver replication.

So I am concerned that stating flat out that German silver existed before the 1830 break through by the Germans is a challenge to the history of metallurgy that will need substantial justification to be taken seriously by authentication labs who do work for museums.

It may not be an easy to solve issue but German silver simply did not exist before 1830.

I agree completely re the need to change the definitions slightly. It is the only way dating with XRF will work correctly for German silver. Some of the material coming out of the Winterthur Laboratory indicates Paktong with only a contaminant level of zinc that entered the alloy naturally by way of the copper mined in China. I recall the level being under 10% zinc. I may be wrong.

The best reference to date on Paktong is Keith Pinn's book "Paktong - The Chinese Alloy in Europe 1680 - 1820. In the book once again Matthew Boulton and Birmingham, England are players in the manufacture of materials made from illegally imported Paktong. One of the more interesting parts are the results of tests run on the collection. The entire Pinn collection was tested for 10 elements using XRF at a detection limit of 0.02% or 200 ppm. The 129 pieces had some or all of the following elements present: copper (Cu), nickel (Ni), zinc (Zn), Iron (Fe), lead (Pb), arsenic (As), cobalt (Co), silver (Ag), tin (Sn) and antimony (Sb). Zinc levels varied from a low of 12 % to a high of 45%. Both Iron and Lead are contaminants in the 0.5% to 5% range and the rest tend to be lower level trace contaminants typically under 0.5% (5000ppm). One reading on one portion of a snuff box had an anomalous reading of 30% silver. Another location tested showed silver as a trace contaminant only.


On a second topic I raised earlier. Have you ever found the pewter alloy called Britannia metal? It is typically composed of 92 or 93% tin, 6 or 5% antimony, and 2% copper. It contains no lead is harder than most pewters and was used extensively for lower value flatware, plates etc. in the middle of the 18th century. It was also used as the base metal for early electroplated flatware in the 1840s and 1850s. This may be the high tin alloy that Bordeaux speaks about as Type 5.