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What Exactly Is "Public Outcry" When It Comes To Coins?

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jpsned's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2016  9:42 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add jpsned to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
We all know the story about the 1909-VDB cent, and how the designer's initials were removed from the reverse due to criticism and "public outcry."

Same is true for the Type 1 Standing Liberty quarters from 1916 and 1917--according to all sources, "public outcry" was responsible for getting Liberty's naked right breast covered up to create a Type II coin.

Just curious--does anyone know the nature of this outcry from the public? What form did it take? Was it in all the papers? On the radio? And didn't people really have more important things to worry about?
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Cascade's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2016  10:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe the mint was flooded with complaints on social media so to save face they overreacted in knee jerk fashion
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2016  10:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I believe the mint was flooded with complaints on social media so to save face they overreacted in knee jerk fashion


Social media in 1909 and 1917? Illuminati confirmed!
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BStrauss3's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2016  10:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think a small number of newspapers made loud noises which was seen as outcry.

Probably the truth is that 99% of the pop didn't care.
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Finn235's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2016  10:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I believe the mint was flooded with complaints on social media so to save face they overreacted in knee jerk fashion


My great grandfather saved that news clipping. Brenner was aggressively told to check his privilege. There was a hash tag and everything.
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Finn235's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2016  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
#NoLadyBitsOnMy2Bits16
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llewellin's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2016  01:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llewellin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
My great grandfather saved that news clipping. Brenner was aggressively told to check his privilege. There was a hash tag and everything.


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Sap's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2016  03:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For the 1916 SLQ, there was no actual "public outcry". This change appears to have been made as a combination of factors: continuing artistic developments and personality clashes at the Mint, the changing political situation in the leadup to America entering WWI, and (yes) fears from Treasury over a potential outcry. But the popular histories prefer simple answers to complex ones, so the "victory for prudishness" myth continues. Search the newspapers, and you will find no editorials demanding that Liberty be covered up.

However, the Lincoln Cent "VDB" controversy was real, and widely commented on in the papers of the day. Several articles quoted un-named Treasury figures opining that the presence of such ostentatious initials might qualify as "advertising" for the engraver in question and therefore be illegal. So it perhaps should be more correctly termed "bad press" rather than "public outcry".

In both cases, the "public" neither knew nor cared.
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carmykle's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2016  04:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carmykle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While certainly not around in 1916, so I can't and anything to the "public outcry"I issue. I can say, in the 1950s, my mother used to hide these quarters when she received them in change because she thought them inappropriate. She'd put them in a jar atop the old Amana Fridge in the kitchen. Wish I had that jar now!
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T-BOP's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2016  08:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm surprised that there was never a public outcry with the Buffalo nickel . ( The Bison's private extremities ) .
does anyone know anything about this . Were there some protests or cover ups that never made it passed congress ?
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Cascade's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2016  08:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fun fact about the SLQ... congress never authorized the new design that covered her breast sooo, only the bare breasted design is legal. All subsequent years with her breast covered are technically illegal. Weird huh
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 Posted 04/13/2016  08:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think 1883 nickel coin first comes to mind as well as other 'unpopular' coins such as nickel coins in China and Korea, followed by antimony coin in China. Circulated platinum coins as well is another example. The irony is that most of them are highly desirable a century later...
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Finn235's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2016  08:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The chain cent was also rejected as "too ugly" if I recall. Now so many would do anything to have one of those coins.
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Sap's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2016  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In British Commonwealth coinage, there was some "public outcry" over removing references to God from the coinage, on three separate occasions in three different countries. This "outcry" was, once again, primarily played out in the newspapers, but also got mentions in parliamentary debate of the day.

In Britain, when they first introduced the florin in 1849, the issued design did not bear the traditional inscriptions "dei gratia" (by the grace of God) and "fidei defensor" (defender of the faith). Now, the florin was going to be a controversial coin in any case, being the beginnings of a planned decimalization of the pound. The removal of the references to God simply gave people another reason to dislike it. Church leaders were in the forefront of critics of the new coin. The coin ceased production and was redesigned two years later, with a much more "traditional" design, but the controversy did put further decimalization plans on hold for more than 100 years. The "Godless florin" is now a very popular collector item.

In Canada, when the new coins for the new king George V first came out in 1911, they omitted the usual "dei gratia" part of the legend (Canadian coins had never borne the "fidei defensor" title). Again there was church-led criticism at the de-christianization of the coinage and again, the Mint restored the "dei gratia" on the coinage the following year. The Canadian mint has never dared to remove "D.G." from the coinage since.

In Australia, when the first coinage for the new queen Elizabeth II came out in 1953, though "D.G." was in its usual place of prominence, the letters "F.D." (for fidei defensor) were omitted from the titles, either by accident or by deliberate choice to attempt to de-clutter the obverse design. There was much discussion about it in the papers here, and debate in parliament; some conspiracy-nutters were calling it a Catholic plot, as there was much public debate in Australia at the time over the alleged secret influence of the Catholic church in politics, and "fidei defensor" is a title recognizing the Queen as head of the Anglican church. It took some time for new dies to be prepared in London and sent over, but they did want to make sure that "correct" dies were available for the commemorative florin issued for the queen's visit to Australia in 1954. Strangely, when all references to God were removed from the coinage entirely in 1966, no-one seemed to complain.

For a non-religious example from Australia: when the $2 coin first came out in 1988, it bore the designer's initials, "HH" for Horst Hahne, on the reverse. The $2 coin depicts a (generic) Aboriginal elder, and the incuse HH monogram was placed in the gentleman's armpit - it looked like the poor chap had been branded. At a time when Aboriginal reconciliation was the politically correct dogma, this was seen as a backward step; there were numerous complaints made, mostly by the PC lobby rather than by Aboriginal people themselves (who were mostly just happy that Aboriginals were being recognized on the coinage at all), and the offending initials were removed from the coin in later years.

In short, yes, "public outcry" over coin designs can happen. It doesn't have to be rioting in the streets; governments are usually quite sensitive to any criticism of the coinage and, fearful of some kind of organized coinage boycott, are usually happy to modify the coinage to stop the complaints/bad press.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2016  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I many cases the idea of "public outcry" is a myth. In most cases changes in coin designs were underway well before many people could have even seen the coins and had a chance to comment on them. In some cases long repeated stories of public outrage are completely fictitious. For example the 1836 Gobrecht dollar with the designers name in the field. For decades the story went that there was great public outcry over the "conceited German" putting his name on it and that for that reason they moved it to the base of the figure. Unfortunately recent research has show that this coin was not produced until the 1850's, long after the Gobrecht dollar had been discontinued. There could never have been the great outcry over a coin that was never circulated. Even if they meant the name on base variety, how much public outcry are you going to get when they only released 600 coins? It would have been a LONG time before very many people even saw them. (Especially considering that most of the were probably snapped up so they never did really circulate so they could be seen.)

I don't see it anymore but they used to frequently repeat the story that the "Society for the Prevention of Vice" had raised a ruckus over the "Educational Series" 1896 silver certificates and the 1916 SLQ. Problem is not a single contemporary reference has ever been produced.

There are a few contemporary references to the racketeer nickel, but mainly just as an editorial warning to people to watch for plated nickels. The oft repeated Josh Tatum story is fiction.

In the case of the VDB lincolns, Brenner originally wanted his full name on the coin. that was nixed for the three initials. But Chief Engraver Barber was unhappy with outsiders designing coins (That was HIS job.) and wanted to get rid of the initials completely. It was suggest that they just use one initial, B, but naturally Barber would not have that. I really believe that most of the pressure to remove the initials was internal, not external.

I'm really only sure of two cases of great public outcry over a coin design. One was the Peace dollar and it happened before the coin was even released. In mid December the newspapers published a description of the design including the eagle standing on a broken sword. That caused an outcry. The broken sword was meant to indicate an end to hostilities
but unfortunately the traditional symbolism of a broken sword is a defeat in battle. People were not happy with the idea that the new "Peace" dollar would indicate we were defeated. Evidence of this outcry DOES exist in letters and telegrams to the mint in the national archives. The hub was hurriedly reengraved by hand to change the sword into an olive branch.

The other was when the President dollars came out and lot of ignorant people started complaining and trying to organize boycotts of the new coin because they did not have In God We Trust on them. That claim was widely circulated on social media and even on newspaper and radio programs. (Don't know if it made it to TV.) After two years the mint caved and moved the motto from the edge back to the obverse.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 04/14/2016  10:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a wonderful topic, worthy of a bookmark. Sap and Conder are brilliant, as always.
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