| Author |
 Replies: 26 / Views: 4,087 |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
570 Posts |
I'm a little new to the world of coin collecting/investing, and to the forum as well. I've been to a few shows and it seems US coins are what's popular, very few dealers with foreign coins. Has this trend been pretty static? Specifically, learning about the history of the "dollar," I've become fond of Talers/Thalers, pre-1800 specifically. The populations of NGC and PCGS graded coins are really low, especially compared to some US coins with much higher valuations. Is this solely due to much lower demand? Any thoughts on this from someone more experienced would certainly be appreciated. |
|
|
|
Valued Member
Germany
303 Posts |
Hi and first of all welcome to the CCF :)
The population of Thalers graded by NGC and PCGS is very low, simply because here in Germany we normally do not send coins somewhere to get them graded and confined in plastic.
Without exception every German coin forum has at least one thread that is about "weird plastic slabs". Actually, collectors regularly post proudly in German forums that they've just freed a coin from a slab. Because the majority of German Thalers is probably still with collectors in Germany, I do not think that this will change soon.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
570 Posts |
Thank you, Potsdamn, for the welcome and the info.
|
|
Moderator
 United States
34409 Posts |
@beem, first welcome to CCF. With regard to populations of existing coins (as opposed to orgininal mintages), I think that some of your perception of their rarity may come from your source of info (US basd coin shows). In my experience, German coin shops tend to have pretty massive inventories of German coins. There are several that sell on the US coin website vcoins. I have tended to focus on smaller denominations, but it is oretty cool to feel the heft of a full taler.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
 beem. The vast majority of US collectors only collect US coins and that trend does not seem likely to change. There are many nice world coins certified by the top two TPGs but, as you noted, the selection is not comparable. If you are looking to collect thalers you will find a large field of interesting choices. If you are looking to invest in thalers, expecting the upside to be better than US coins, I would recommend caution. The US market is large and well researched -- the census from the TPGs are fairly trustworthy guides -- not so much with world coins. I am a collector and I am fond of thalers, and other similar sized, silver coins. Many thalers have a portrait of some noble and a coat of arms but others are truly exceptional designs. Here are a few of my favorites.    Edited by jgenn
07/07/2016 12:12 am
|
|
Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Welcome. As Jgenn has stated the US market is geared predominantly to US coins. Therefore for the majority of US collectors the best option is US coins. Unfortunately that comes at a cost as The US market is mature and to Invest you have to spend a lot. Foreign coins is largely an undiscovered country in the US but that is changing. I make that last statement noting the rising interest in the USA for Ancient and Byzantine coinage. If you do follow your indicated interest and go for thalers you have an opportunity to lead the market, but you will have to be smart and you will have to do your own research. As a general rule Thalers in the USA sell at a discount to their European market values. Some of my best coins were purchased in the USA I picked up a mining thaler from the 18th century for €500.00 cheaper than I would have paid in Europe a few years back. A few months ago I picked up a Prague mint 1757 Maria Theresa thaler for US$350.00 courtesy of Stacks Bowers in New York. That was a steal for me as here in Austria the same coin sells in Auction at €800.00. The trick is to buy European coin catalogs and identify the coins that are undervalued in the USA. You can then buy with confidence knowing that over time the USA and European market values equalize. The equalization can occur in two ways so it is important to ensure you buy the best quality in the USA with the highest discount to European values. This will protect you from any slippage in the European catalog value. Over the last 10 years the usual equalization has been the US values rise to match the European Edited by austrokiwi
07/07/2016 03:30 am
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
570 Posts |
spence, thank you! jgenn, thank you, and gorgeous coins! austrokiwi, thank you and that's exactly what I'm looking for. I'm a contrarian. I am looking for coins that I believe the market has incorrectly valued, specifically for the reasons given here. The information about foreign thalers selling for values lower than those in Europe is great info. I believe you're correct, the differences in those values will disappear one way or the other, either up or down, the gaps should fill. But this explains why, even from international sellers, there is a severe lack of thalers for sale on ebay. Why would Europeans sell Thalers to Americans for a lower price than they would sell to Europeans? So, I suppose this is not a popular belief, but regardless I think demand for at least some foreign coins will increase, and greatly, inside the US, and they will demand the coins be graded by PCGS or NGC, at least as the market begins to bridge. It seems to me, solely going by what I see available on ebay, a well-to-do investor could easily gobble up every single high grade thaler available for sale. I don't have nearly that kind of money, but it wouldn't take a millionaire to do it. By comparison, there are currently 6500 Morgan dollars on ebay priced at $600 or more. The gap is HUGE! Don't get me wrong, I don't see the market changing overnight. But if I had a lot of money in US coins, I would begin diversifying. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
570 Posts |
Just to add, the German and Austrian Thalers seem to be of the highest quality and with the best designs. I've also been looking at other dollar-sized coins from the 1700's to early 1900's. I see increased demand for 8 Reales already.
|
|
New Member
Canada
24 Posts |
As beem said, the market for thalers in north america is just not "hot", specially compared to Morgan dollars for example. on the plus side it means greater opportunities to finds deals. On a side note you will find many german states coinage at heritage auctions, mostly slabbed and there are bid wars for them. |
|
Valued Member
United States
462 Posts |
I exclusively buy from big 3 auction houses these days (HA, stacks and Goldberg). I can definetly say the prices are going up steadily within last 4-5 years. In my opinion the price difference is not much between these auction houses in US and say Kuneker auctions or mashops.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
570 Posts |
Can someone recommend a European catalog I could use as a guide to better understand European valuations of Thalers?
|
|
Moderator
United States
34409 Posts |
@beem, there are multiple sellers from Europe on the vcoins website. You could start there. If you want a more EU-centric site, ma-shops has lots of European sellers.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
570 Posts |
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1913 Posts |
Message to spence: about your slogan about young and foolish:
My uncle says that "I am young and foolish yet".
Message to beem about my thoughts on Thalers:
I buy one of these once in a while if I can afford them. Personally I could not stand the thought of having them in a slab. I'd have to break them out just to enjoy having them in hand. It is very typical for me to pass on every table I see at a coin show that displays slabbed coins. The few slabs I did buy- I broke the coins out. I can understand some of the purpose in grading or slabbing a coin- but it's not for me.
|
|
Valued Member
United States
462 Posts |
Although I have bought from both vcoins and mashops in the past, I would not buy from them now. They tend to be over market prices and you have to pay around 3% additional fees for paypal if the seller is in Europe. In my opinion auctions give more realistic prices based on demand for a particular coins. sixbid ( https://www.sixbid.com/) is a good site to go over various auctions including US and European auction houses. I use http://www.coinarchives.com/ to get an estimate of what a particular coin has been sold in the past. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1429 Posts |
I collect mostly on Holy Roman Empire Crowns - http://www.taleruniverse.com/Price discovery is very straightforward in looking up auction records. The key is making sense of the quality descriptions. Images are not as well done in Europe as they are here in the US. The challenge in the past few years has been currency exchange rates working against the Eurozone. Look at as many coins and your margin of error will be reduced. The census reports will show you relative scarcity yet not absolute. Auction records (coinarchives etc.) will give you much more. Buy the coin not plastic. I put them in slabs as they are convenient to store and are more liquid here in the US if you are to sell. I do see more slabs in European auctions. Kunker auctions as an example brings stronger prices compared to US auction houses so at times bargains are found on this side of the pond. Edited by Zohar444
07/10/2016 10:02 pm
|
| |
Replies: 26 / Views: 4,087 |
Posted 07/06/2016 4:15 pm
