A Nice Bolivia Potosi Mint Transit 8 Reales 1790

All the suspicious here are based on the coin owners's location,including a Hong Kong member.That's rediculous! One is Chinese and the other is a morroccan,then blablaba,we make the fakes.That's the logics.
If the coins were not burried under morrocco,it was made by modify,then modify runs a great business,cause he had got almost all the mexico\potosi\lima 8r dies of CarolousIII.That's amazing!
I don't wanna say more to defense of my coins if they are genunie or not.I only want to discuss the coin itself.If anybody says it is fake,pls tell me the reason why,not only the subjective assumption.
The ha.com 3 coins I've posted above only to confirm my the this forum had has umm more or less or a little bit of Nation Discrimination,sorry to say so.
You may doubts about all the 8 reales only with coin's pictures,I can understand.But when it comes to lots from Heritage\Stack's\Sedwickcoins\Goldberg,then there is no doubt at all.I don't know,but I think that's not objective.
I will go 2 phases to demonstrate the coins I posted are geniune or not.One is to post clear pics,two is to send them to NGC or PCGS.
Pls see pics and the wieght of it will post soon

My NGC certified Lima 1787-IJ pillar NGC-MS64 Pop Top









And another two Lima 8R 1785 and 1786 from Haiti hoard.

Nic, the thing about these possibly being a hoard find (which, if they were genuine, would be the only legitimate explanation for these) - Most of the pieces he has offered HAVE been clustered within a few years of 1790... but then he also sold a few high grade pillars (maybe more like XF-AU grade in appearance, but still far enough removed from the early 1790s that you would expect more wear)... and, of course it is a mix of the common American mints... That is a bit unusual (high grade hoards are typically somewhat more "homogenous", as they would typically have come mainly from a single source - like the hoard of 1774 Potosi you noted... though the mint mix seen here is not impossible).



True... either they're genuine, in which case they almost certainly would be a "hoard" find... OR they're all fakes. If that's the case, then yes, a LOT of effort has gone into making these. As I said, the detailing on most of what he's been selling IS correct for the date/mint of that coin... so yeah, it would be a professional job if they were able to produce all those different dies in a reasonable quality.

I don't have an exact answer, but I am highly suspicious of this group to begin with because of what I said above... and then there are certain subtle things I don't like from what I see in the photos. Luster may be a bit "off" for the Mexican pieces... Then, how is it that NONE of the coins have any encrustration/signs of removal of such? Even if they were found in an interior area of Morocco, dry climate... it is hard for silver to stay so well-preserved. I also see certain strike features (rather than DESIGN features) that seem to be similar on several coins that are "different mints"... which you might not expect since each mint's strike has certain "hallmarks" which are kind of identifiable.

to realeswatcher
Thank you for your kindness and analysis.But the Cuzco hoard I montioned above inclues the 8r minted at Lima and Potosi from Caroluos IIII to Fedin VII,and with several Carolous III.I studied on it when it come out to Numi Market. So a hoard may a rich family's treasure,ever silver coin to the family only meants money,so it can be any type of gold or silver coins.
It is common in China when found a box of silver coin including the dragon dollars from Qing dynasty to porait dollar of the China republic.
So I thought when a man accumulated his money in the 18 century,it is reasonable to found coins with different date and kinds in one hoard.
If the Morroccan invested many money on making fake coins,and each coin can be made this good and made of silver then sold with relatively low price,then he is a idot.
All the fakes including the guy you pointed out who is a Chinese, he make fakes with iron and other base metal,not precious metal.And his products of mogen dollar can identify as fake at first sight,and he sold the copies only for $1 or less.
Although I fully understand you concern about the geniunety of the 8R coins I posted here,I definely sure they are made of SILVER.
And forgive my rudness,frankly speaking I am not a amateur on collecting 8r coins.There are more than 100 8r coins in my collection,mainly Lima 8R, partcially potosi\mexico mint,even the guatemala mint.
At least I can figure out they are silver or not.
To my exprience, the lima and potosi mint, especially the potosi mint has a different mint style,like the fauvism.
Here is one NGC-AU58 potosi carolous III piallar from my collection which many people here will say it fake when a raw coin.

to wonghinghi
That's OK. I all take pics again with the weight.I am waiting for my new digital scale,as the old one was broken.
This coin was washed in water when it came out. That's why you feel not natural.
I posted the Lima 1787 8R only to proof what realeswatcher said:either from a hoard or all fake.
If anybody can proof the Lima 8R also a fake one,I'll consider all the 8R coins that I bought this times on ebay may countifiet. Cause the Lima 1787 8R also from the same seller in Morrocco.
It's funny when a fake coin producer sell both guniune coins and fakes.

Ps: All of sudden I thought if the this Morrocan seller make fakes and made them so good,then why he didn't make the pillar from Colombia or Chile,at least should made the pillars of Guatemala.Cause pillars form those countries are more valuable.
As for this potosi 8R itself,the spots and lines on the surface should be the characters of this date and the date before in terms of the crudness of struck.

nicolashsing In your various comments you make several "assumptions" that are just not true.




The coin that began this thread has an edge design that appears to be counterfeit. The design is NOT consistent with the edge used at Potosi. There appear to be two different edge designs (different length and sized segments) superimposed one over the other entirely doubling the edge.

It would take a lot of study to separate the two images but it is EXTREMELY suspicious because in 1790 the edge was an entirely manual process and two passes on two different edgers is something I have never seen on a genuine 8R.

Mint workers were paid by the total output of the mint. It is unlikely that a worker would edge a blank twice.

Also as someone else noted, while it is easy to copy the face dies - the edge design is far harder (not impossible). That is usually where the forgers screw up. In fact until I started to complain very loudly the TPGs NEVER even looked at the edges of coins.

Besides the edge, I also see far too many small raised lumps in the fields. There are raised line segments, a possible delamination in the pony tail area, letters that lack sharp definition and surface erosion in the dentils as well as other anomalies in the die surfacing which point to a likely forgery. I base all of this not on the location in Morocco but on what the coin looks like.

What I am suggesting is that you test the coins scientifically to that prove the coin is silver of the correct alloy and age. These tests are possible and can not be easily defeated by forgers.




This sounds like you do not believe silver copies exist. Silver forgeries and counterfeits actually do exist. They were made for many reasons including for a profit of less than 20% in total. Have you read my book? I believe I have proven that many hundreds of thousands of silver counterfeit coins were made for trade with China.




There is a profit to be made copying common 8Rs (not rare ones) and you do not necessarily have to flood the market with hundreds or thousands of copies like the Chinese have been doing with non-silver copies. All you have to do is sell copies in different markets or sell your products separated by significant intervals of time. It also depends on how you make your dies and how expensive that process is. Cast plastic molds can be produced for $5 - 30 a pair very rapidly with no damage to genuine coins. These can actually strike up to 6 or 10 silver examples per die pair before they are destroyed. If you sell the fakes for $50 or $100 each you can make $ 300-$1000 for an investment of about under $100. That is a huge profit. Do not presume all forgers are as greedy as you believe. The most successful forgers are never caught and are rarely greedy.

I have in the past 56 years known several successful forgers who were active for decades. These guys were never arrested let alone convicted. The most successful one operated from 1920 to 1960 and very few people even knew what he was doing. His death exposed his secret to his relatives. His last effort was the forgery of half dollars and quarter dollars for circulation. It was a "retirement project". I own one 50 cent coin that he gave me personally. He was able to make them and clear almost a 50% profit. He made his own dies on a pantographic lath and finished them for striking himself. Trained as an engraver in the jewelry mold making business he ran his sideline successfully for decades. He did make 10s of thousands of copies but his profit per coin was minimal. The coins were passed as income from coin operated machines.







These two quotes display the identical error in thinking. As I have indicated above, the appearance of documented counterfeits in all of these venues DOES OCCUR. They also appear in PCGS, NGC and ANACS holders. Most serious counterfeit collectors have collections of slabbed counterfeits as part of their collections like I do. In the past I have posted some of these coins.




If you study the great forgers - most of them like Becker sold both genuine and forged coins. Many of the ebay sellers do the same thing today mixing common genuine coins with scarcer fakes.

Hello dear experts.
I consider buying two Potosi minted coins .
According to the seller, these coins are origin from the treasure finding.
However some details make me to suspect fake. Please, can anyone numesmatic expert comment on it?
Thank you.