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Kennedy Undocumented Errors - Spitting Kennedy, Blowin'-In-The-Wind, Un-Ear

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DylanGrace's Avatar
United States
19 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2016  1:43 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add DylanGrace to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I was viewing some rolls of Kennedy half dollars my father saved that were listed under four separate titles. They were all labeled undocumented, along with their respective error names he assigned to them. These are full BU rolls, and I have posted two photos from two different coins for each error. I can post additional photos later, if needed.
What I am wondering is - has anyone seen these errors before, and what should they be classified as?
The first set is what my father called "Spitting Kennedy", I'm guessing he got that from the "Spitting Eagle" Morgan dollar.
The second set he call "Blowin'-in-the-wind", which looks like Kennedy has wind blowing from the back of his head.
The third he referred to as "Un-Ear", meaning unfinished inner-ear...I'm guessing.
And finally what he called "Ear-Cud". I'm note sure this is a Cud though.
I have searched many forums and listings of errors throughout the internet, and have note found a single example of these errors. Maybe someone out there is familiar with these or can help me classify them correctly.

Kennedy-Undocumented-Errors---Spitting-Kennedy,-Blowin'-In-The-Wind,-Un-Ear

Kennedy-Undocumented-Errors---Spitting-Kennedy,-Blowin'-In-The-Wind,-Un-Ear

Kennedy-Undocumented-Errors---Spitting-Kennedy,-Blowin'-In-The-Wind,-Un-Ear

Kennedy-Undocumented-Errors---Spitting-Kennedy,-Blowin'-In-The-Wind,-Un-Ear

Kennedy-Undocumented-Errors---Spitting-Kennedy,-Blowin'-In-The-Wind,-Un-Ear

Kennedy-Undocumented-Errors---Spitting-Kennedy,-Blowin'-In-The-Wind,-Un-Ear

Kennedy-Undocumented-Errors---Spitting-Kennedy,-Blowin'-In-The-Wind,-Un-Ear

Kennedy-Undocumented-Errors---Spitting-Kennedy,-Blowin'-In-The-Wind,-Un-Ear

*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***

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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2016  2:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are not finding any reference to them because they are not errors. The first one is just a small die scratch, a fairly common occurrence. The second one is the manifestation of a Late Die State, it is just a form of die wear(also seen in front of the bust with the die scratch). The flat ear is caused by die abrading/polishing, generally done to remove clash marks from the die surface. The procedure will also occasionally remove fine die details.
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jasper62's Avatar
United States
2189 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2016  3:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jasper62 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with everything biokemist said.I just wanted too add those are some fantastic pictures.Photographing coins is not an easy task.
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bpoc1's Avatar
United States
4078 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2016  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
with Biokemist.
DylanGrace, nice pictures. To help your search for error coins you could buy a number of books. " CherryPickers' Guide or "Strike it Rich". There is a number of web sites to go to. Check the "Search Coin Community" on the left top of the page.
Good eye and happy hunting.
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2016  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will also join in on congratulating you on your photography skills Many new members post photos of such low quality that we are often left to guess what the poster is actually seeing.
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Dustin6's Avatar
United States
3516 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2016  6:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dustin6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
as mentioned before by biokemist, these are not errors, just common die events. Also as mentioned before, great pics.
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DylanGrace's Avatar
United States
19 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2016  10:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DylanGrace to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First, I want to thank you for your replies, they have made me more aware of the types of errors/varieties. Although, I did not receive any comments on the "Ear-Cud" on the final two examples.
I would like to address the comment sent by biokemist6; You stated that the "Spitting-Kennedy" was due to a die scratch and was a common occurrence. But isn't the "Spitting Eagle" also due to a die scratch/gouge? I have several of these "Spitting-Kennedy's", and they are all identical, collected over a period of time by my father who was an avid collector of error coins.
As to the "Un-Ear", you say this is due to "die abrading/polishing". But again, there are several die varieties which exhibit over-abrasion like the No "FG" on both the Kennedy half and the Lincoln Cent, and the 3-legged Buffalo nickel, to name just a few.
So I must ask, when does a repeated occurrence produce a variety?
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SjlundCoin's Avatar
United States
534 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2016  11:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SjlundCoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These are just too small to be recognized as varieties. The coins you stated are much more dramatic than these ones.

The "Ear Cud" is just a die gouge/ scratch. (A Cud involves the rim)

The photos were amazing though!
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CoinCents's Avatar
United States
3656 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2016  11:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
and Great images - I still like finding the unusual die chips and scratches even though they are not errors - some are pretty funny.

Biochemist

Quote:
Many new members post photos of such low quality that we are often left to guess what the poster is actually seeing.


I am definitely one of those members that these great people put up with on my images. I will say though I really do try to get good images.
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CoinMasters's Avatar
United States
5964 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2016  02:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unless I'm mistaken, your father was correct. I believe an Over-polished Die, Die Chips, Gouges, Cracks, etc. are technically Errors. The problem with these coins though, is as stated above, they are not dramatic enough to generate much interest. If your father enjoyed them, that's fine. I think he probably knew they were not worth sending off for attribution. He certainly had the right to name them, as much right as anyone else that finds an error coin.

I have similar coins that I enjoy, and so do many other collectors. I kind of like the Spitting Kennedy. If the Chip were a little larger it would probably generate more interest - like the famous Spitting Horse. The more dramatic ones are bought and sold on ebay everyday, and that's fine too, as long as they're not misrepresented.
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2016  12:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So I must ask, when does a repeated occurrence produce a variety?

When they are a characteristic of the die when it is first put into service. Differences thaat appear over time during the use and or maintenance of the die are not true varieties they are die states or die stages (Those last two terms are often used interchangeably, and incorrectly. They do not mean the same thing.) The no FG and 3 legged buffalo are NOT varieties, but are often incorrectly called such. They are more properly called late die stages and in the case of the 37 D three legged it is also a late die state. I don't know if the no FG coins are late die states or not.

Die state refers to the wear a die has received and is a continuous gradual change over the life of the die.

Die stages are discrete steps or changes that occur during the life of the die. It is a case of one coin is one die stage and the next coin struck is from a different stage. Stages are defined by something definite that you can point to a say "here is what changed". Examples would be a die cracks, they clash, a chip occurs, clashmarks are polished off, die features or design are polished off, a Retained Cud, the Retained Cud becomes a full Cud etc.
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biokemist6's Avatar
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12437 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2016  12:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But isn't the "Spitting Eagle" also due to a die scratch/gouge?

Yes, but the 1891CC "spitting eagle" is not an error either. Unlike modern coin types, Morgans can be collected by specific die pairings. These pairings are assigned VAM numbers, derived from the names of the two authors of the seminal reference book for Morgans- Leroy Van Allen and George Mallis. That die gouge is a marker for a specific die pairing.
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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2016  1:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I refer to the terms that some thing are interesting as an event that happened to the die. This maybe permanent or just temporary. Die scratches, clashes happen to a die but later are either removed or flattened with continued use. Other evens such as die cracks, chips, breaks Retained Cuds, Cuds and die damage is permanent. So when events happen, some can be collectable, but I my book they are never varieties. As BIO mentioned, a variety is created on the die, before it is used. A die event to me is not a variety. Just an event that happened to the die.
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