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Why Is This Coin Being Sold Raw?

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barryg's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  3:27 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add barryg to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
http://www.ebay.com/itm/351824685907

I mean, it's rare (only 600 made) and it appears to be in gorgeous condition with spectacular toning. I can only guess that it has been somehow improperly cleaned in the past or there is some major flaw that is being hidden by the photography, but that's just a guess.

With a coin this potentially valuable, why on earth would anybody NOT get it graded and slabbed before attempting to sell it unless they knew it had some sort of problem that would cause it to get a "details" grade? Or could it perhaps not even really be a proof to begin with?

Any thoughts?

Edited by barryg
09/01/2016 3:30 pm
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Andrew99's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  3:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
GSC has a reputation for great photography. Their pictures hide many flaws in their coins. They also specialize in selling coins with problems. I suspect, but cannot verify from the photos, that this is a hairlined piece rather than the Gem verbally described. It is very hard to see hairlines on proof coins from photos which is why I'd never bid on a proof coin sight unseen without a return privilege. That being said, GSC accepts return graciously when you don't like the coin.
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AcesKings's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  3:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AcesKings to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've heard the same thing as Andrew, that being said, not everyone wants their coins certified. In my area it's harder to find certified coins than nice original raw coins.
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barryg's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  3:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add barryg to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I notice that GSC also sells certified coins. Is it safe to assume that any coin (or, at least, any particularly valuable coin) they are selling raw is most likely a problem coin (improperly cleaned, polished, whizzed, etc)? Again, I just can't imagine why any reputable dealer would sell a high value coin such as this raw unless they were up to no good.
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Andrew99's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  3:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It certainly is safe to assume, as you won't end up buying a problem coin. However, it is also pretty safe buying something from GSC as you can return it. I have done this personally, even on something I missed that was clearly in the photo and I realized it when I got the coin.
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barryg's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  4:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add barryg to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
However, it is also pretty safe buying something from GSC as you can return it

Hmmmm... How are they on returns if you submit a coin for grading and it comes back "Improperly Cleaned" or "Damaged" or the like? Will they take it back and refund the money you spend trying to have it graded?

I used to collect antique pocked watches and dealt with a few "reputable" sellers who frequently lied about their stuff, but still claimed to have a reputation for honesty because they offered a 100% no-questions-asked money back guarantee. The thing is, they were counting on most people not noticing or discovering the problems (replacement dial, replated cases, different jewel count than advertised, etc.). I get the feeling that GSC is the same.

"I'll return your money if you discover I'm lying" is not the same, in my opinion, as "I won't lie to you in the first place" and doesn't make one a particularly honest or reputable dealer. And from what you're saying, if I want a coin that I can get graded and slabbed, I should definitely avoid buying anything raw from these guys (especially since if the coin could be graded and slabbed, they likely would have already done so).
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Coinfrog's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  4:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
barryg - Well said.
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bpoc1's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  4:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting discusion.
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moxking's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I simply don't look at anything from GSC regardless of price unless it's already PCGS or NGC. Their photos of raw coins consistently look better than in-hand.
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dsfreeworld's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  5:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsfreeworld to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From what I know and have experienced, GSC does utilize photos that can dramatically increase the appearance of a coin but they also stand behind what they sell. I have purchased many, many coins over the years from them, both raw and slabbed and have spoke to several people at their organization. They are not witches and no hunt is required against their intentions. They buy and sell what comes their way and turn over inventory as fast as possible to reduce operational costs in the long run. They have no desire to certify this coin and go through the motions. They simply want to move it as a piece of inventory with little to no care for it being anything other than another inventory item. Buyer beware if you're not skilled at reviewing raw coins via pictures. Also, in this case of this coin, this is not a hairline piece with those kinds of issues. I think there are a few mars on the mirrors around the peripherals but I would bet my bottom dollar this comes back in a righteous slab at a PR62 or so.

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ArrowsAndRays's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ArrowsAndRays to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We just had a GSC altered photo thread a fw days ago.
Would someone with detective skills care to search for a recent sale of a proof 20 cent - in a details slab?
I think that would explain why this isn't currently slabbed.
edit: This is GSC's fourth proof 20 cent w/o a slab, per 'sold' listing search on the 'bay.
Edited by ArrowsAndRays
09/01/2016 5:40 pm
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coinlover1899's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  5:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinlover1899 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is one beautiful coin!

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barryg's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  6:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add barryg to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That is one beautiful coin!


Indeed, and it's the one coin I need to complete my "Proof Type Set." Slabbed examples with good eye appeal tend tun run in the $4000-6000 range, so I would love to get this cheaper. But I simply don't trust them and don't want to deal with sending it to be certified only to have it sent back with problems.
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 Posted 09/01/2016  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add terry8835 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am looking at the Red Book and the proof of this coin goes for over $5000 considering there are only 600 of them inexistence and all are proofs. Maybe they are selling the coin raw because as other have said if it were slabbed the toning would not show up to such an effect. The Red Book also gives prices for this coin in VF and EF condition. This might indicate that not all the proofs remained proofs. This could be one of those coins. The 1877 date of this coin has a mintage of only 510 and it too has listings for coins in VF and EF condition. The 1876CC has a mintage of 10,000 and one in MS65 sold for $564,000 in 2013. 1,155,000 of the 1875-S were minted and a coin in MS63 sells for around $25,000. I don't get it.
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Saruma's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  6:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Saruma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If the price doesn't jump too high before it is close to ending maybe put in a lowball bid and see what happens. Basically make a bid low enough that if you won it you'd be willing to go through the hassle if it is a problem coin.
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GR58's Avatar
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 Posted 09/01/2016  10:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is a beautiful coin, would be a good pickup at the current price.

I do have to wonder if maybe it had been in a details holder and was busted out.

When I enlarge the picture I see a area on the obverse. Between Liberty's
foot and the rim. To me it looks like someone had tried to clean something
off the coin in that area.

Edited by GR58
09/01/2016 10:32 pm
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