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 Replies: 16 / Views: 2,357 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts |
I just bought a 1939 Lincoln Penny proof. IMO it's beautiful, maybe not the best strike (the dealer thought it was about an MS 64), but NO wear, obviously well preserved, brilliant mint luster throughout. I guess I'm a sucker for toning because that's what caught my eye. Where the natural color of the coin shows through, it's a rich red. The toning is darker and depending on the light there are a few shades of purplish brown/olive green. I tried to get a photo that captures the color, but every camera in the house flattens and changes it. The best ones are below. Anyway, here are my questions: when they talk about a penny being red or brown or any combo of the two, I assume they are talking about the actual copper, which shifts over time and exposure to the world. Does toning count, in which case this coin would be RB? Or is it red because the underlying copper is still red? Also, is toning bad in a proof, in terms of numismatic quality? (Obviously I don't think it's bad, or I wouldn't have paid for this.) Would putting it in an airtite with ring arrest the changes in the coin or will it continue to change? Finally, just curious, you guys who like to practice grading, what do you think of this?   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1601 Posts |
Here's my cents worth on it. Red refers to the original color of the coin, e.g., "like a new penny". As it matures (oxidizes)it gets darker. With these prewar proofs, first it gets a darker red (RB), then goes all the way to brown. I've yet to see a '39 proof go all brown so most age to RB or start to do this multi toning depending on what contaminants it is exposed to. If you like multi-toned coins, this one is great. Putting it in an airtite will probably be good and it will probably slow further toning. From the pictures posted, I can't see any dings or scratches but I think a TPG might call the toning environmental damage from bad storage. I've not seen one graded that has this much color. It might get a PR64 but that's a guess. Might be lower. Edited by Biedercoins
10/12/2016 09:15 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
790 Posts |
Thanks. I'm also going to post this pic on the Errors and Variations page. I think it shows more environmental damage, but there's a weird raised pit below the date, and a bump on the 1 that looks like a mint error. I don't find anything like it in the Cherry Pickers Guide, so I'll ask the experts.  |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5828 Posts |
I vote artificial toning. The overall look of the toning is completely off from what a normal post 1935 proof Cent should look like.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts |
That's too bad, if true, ChildoftheWheat. Based on pricing of coins I know, as well as what I thought was VERY good pricing on bullion coins, I thought I'd found a great dealer. I also looked at a very nice, toned Buffalo nickel that he had a great price on (I'd have called it somewhere in the mid AU range based on the nickels I've studied from my grandpas collection). He was selling it for just $20--went out of his way to point out it had been cleaned. He also looked at some coins my cousin brought and his comments were pretty much what I expected--he wasn't setting her up for a lowball quote, IMO, though he was definitely managing expectations in case she wanted to sell. I'd expect a very experienced dealer (this guys been in business for well over a decade, I believe) to know artificial toning. Edited by twslisa
10/12/2016 07:51 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1601 Posts |
Quote:
I'd expect a very experienced dealer (this guys been in business for well over a decade, I believe) to know artificial toning. There are a couple of kinds of experience for a dealer; knowing a lot about coins & knowing enough about coins to sell them to different customers. I'm not slammming the guy, just pointing it out. Did you actually discuss the nature of the toning? COW is likely right about the AT. The colors on a toned coin are from chemical reactions with the copper in the coin. Mostly we're talking copper salts with oxygen (blue), sulfur (yellow), chlorine, (green) and so on. Add manganese and you get some reds. People doing AT have practiced on cheap modern copper cents. Why would they do it? Well, that big "carbon spot" below the date is one reason. Where there's one, there are often more and they're hard to contain. But let the folks who do P-chem rule on that. I'm rambling... The bump on the "one"? I don't know. I only have a single 1939-pf and it's clean. Edited by Biedercoins
10/12/2016 09:10 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts |
We didn't talk about the nature of toning on this coin, but we did touch on artificial toning when talking about another coin my cousin brought in. (Hers wasn't, but the fact that people do that was discussed.). He also went out of his way to tell me that a Buffalo nickel I was admiring had been cleaned. I think it was priced fairly, given that fact. I'd guesstimate it would have rated in the low-to-mid AU range if not for the cleaning (good hair detail and fur detail, light wear on high points) and it had some nice rainbow toning along the rim from about 8-to-2 o'clock. He was asking $20. On the whole it seemed like a good shop. This was in a different town than where I live--I was meeting my cousin for lunch--but I had plans to return next time I was up that way. |
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Moderator
 United States
56855 Posts |
Just throwing this out there,does everyone think this IS a proof and not a business strike? John1  Edited by John1
10/12/2016 12:12 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19942 Posts |
Toning on the Lincoln proof almost always moves it into RB. That's how this coin would be slabbed by any of the TPG's. Proofs tend to tone more easily then business strikes. I've seen all kinds of crazy toning right INSIDE the mint packaging. I would classify this proof as "market acceptable" to any experienced collector. Lincoln Cent Lover!VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR https://verdi.care/
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Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts |
NIce to hear from you, Brad! I was starting to feel really bad about this buy.  . Another question. Assuming that spot is corrosion, is there a way to make sure it doesn't get worse? Edited by twslisa
10/12/2016 11:32 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1601 Posts |
Quote:
Just throwing this out there,does everyone thing this IS a proof and not a business strike? That was a second thought when I first looked at it but I think it must be the way the light is reflected. The strike sorta looks "shifted" off center to the NW, doesn't it? The rims and polished surfaces are Proof to my eyes. Quote:
I've seen all kinds of crazy toning right INSIDE the mint packaging. That's absolutely true! I've yet to see a '39 proof set in original packaging. Do you know what material was used when this coin was first distributed? I seem to remember that early Moderns came in paper envelopes and later cello of some sort, either as sets or individuals. Edited by Biedercoins
10/12/2016 12:07 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts |
I really wish I could get a GOOD photo of this coin. Everything I've tried either ends up flattening it out, so it looks really manky and mottled (more so than appears to the naked eye), and/or changes the colors significantly.
I'm no expert, though from going through my grandpa's collection I've looked at A LOT of coins now. But I'm pretty sure this IS a proof, unless there's a way to buff a regular strike up to the same kind of shine without wearing off details.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19942 Posts |
Quote:
Another question. Assuming that spot is corrosion, is there a way to make sure it doesn't get worse? Rinse it with acetone and put it into an airtite holder. Lincoln Cent Lover!VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR https://verdi.care/
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19942 Posts |
Quote:
Do you know what material was used when this coin was first distributed? A small cardboard box, inside is a small envelope that contains each coin individually wrapped in cellophane and stapled together. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts |
I'm not sure if this is at all helpful, but if I hold a piece of paper with writing on it next to the penny, I can see the lines of text reflected on the surface of the coin, even where it looks crusty and dull and dark in the photos.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1601 Posts |
I don't think there's much of a chance this could be a business strike. It's a proof.   |
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Replies: 16 / Views: 2,357 |
Posted 10/12/2016 06:46 am
