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 Replies: 21 / Views: 3,844 |
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Valued Member
United States
302 Posts |
 In the process of updating/revising my on-line 1859 catalog, something has occurred to me with regard to one of the reverse dies. Above is a photo of a coin from this die. But, what die is it? Now, Okiecoiner (the sound of whose name strikes fear in the hearts of the Oklahoma boars) doesn't like to use my catalog. How would he know which die this is? It's pretty vanilla. Well, he might just say, "I know that one! It goes into the tube of 59s I use as ball markers on the golf course." But, let's say Okie had an epiphany and decided to use my catalog to identify this die. How would he do? Probably not very well, but it wouldn't be his fault. So, let's hear from you 59s as to what die this is and why Okie could have so much trouble identifying it using my catalog.... Edited by JHax
11/19/2016 11:56 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
581 Posts |
I'm not touching this one with a 10 foot pole. No markers I can see to help me identify this coin. Broken vine variety or late stage die? I shall be following to see the answers of more knowledgeable people!
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Pillar of the Community
New Zealand
1679 Posts |
Here goes nothing Looking at the base of the stem of leaf 9 I see a swiggle? or is there some dirt covering it? I would then go to ID rev markers which also show leaf 9 markers --cannot find a match--go to leaf 7 gap narrow, go to leaf 2 vine gap -wide = G group then got lost. HELP  Cheers Don
Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
638 Posts |
Well Jim I would have to say Rev. E10
MG
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Valued Member
 United States
302 Posts |
Why isn't this a Group G, Marcel?
Edited by JHax
11/20/2016 07:30 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
638 Posts |
Jim I would say heavily clogged die or die wear in my opinion... here is the same rev. but in better cond.  MG Edited by viper
11/20/2016 08:24 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts |
E 21
Diagnostic die-crack to leaf 2.
Suggest amending the yellow grid box to include this die-crack.
doug
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Valued Member
United States
302 Posts |
Doug, you were correct until four days ago, but not now. E21 has been retired and is now a spare number. The "News" tab on the menu bar of my catalog shows what's going on. E21 always showed up with the die very worn (not clogged), hence several of the outer vine loops worn through. Randy recently correctly suggested that E10 and E21 might be the same die. E10 were the earlier states (Marcel's coin is a lovely example) and former E21 was the later states (the one I illustrate here). And, yes Doug, we'll add in a notation for that tiny crack at L2.
Kudos to Marcel for being the first to correctly identify the die as E10.
The point of this thread was twofold. First, it shows a deficiency in my catalog when one is trying to ID late states of E10. The worn-through Loop 2 at first glance suggests this might be a Group G, not a Group E, coin. And that can lead to big trouble. We're shortly going to put a note in the Reverse Group sorting sequence to alert people about this problem. If you look at the die file for E10, you'll find this discussed. The file actually includes full-side photos for E10 early states and late states, something we have not felt the need to do for any other reverse. And the second reason for the thread was to point out the combination of E10 and E21 into a single die (E10).
It's clear from the extent to which E10 wore that this die had a long run, pushing perhaps 100,000 pieces. It could well hold the outturn record for an 1858-59 reverse. It is tempting to speculate that we don't find more 1859 dies like this because most failed from cracking or collapsing before they received such extensive wear.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
Great work again Marcel..
...just don't know how I'm ever going to keep all of this in my noggin..
Repetition with more of these 59's really helps a lot..
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1101 Posts |
Doug,
That was my fault (OOPS) that you identified this as E21. I forgot to change one link from Leaf 2 ID photos to the E10 die page. So you found the only link left(I hope) to the page for E21. I was pretty sure when I saw your post that I had missed this one. I have corrected it now. Sorry about that.
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Pillar of the Community
New Zealand
1679 Posts |
WOW that's why I need lots of 59'ers to build up my knowledge  I think I will have to shift to Canada  Maybe not too many bears and snakes Viper ---- excellent work in the identification of this 1  Cheers Don
Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1923 Posts |
Not many bears in the towns and cities but maybe snakes in some. We have rattle snakes and they show up in the city sometimes when its real hot you will see them on the pavement crossing the roads. Come Fourmack  to Canada |
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Pillar of the Community
New Zealand
1679 Posts |
Thanks papeldog ,I would like to- The only thing that bites here is a spider or 2 and the next door neighbour. My son lives in Vancouver and is coming back for a quick visit next year -so maybe he will bring me some 59er's.  Cheers Don
Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts |
I suspect I am missing something. Granted, the photo of the E21 is of a
considerably lower grade than the photo of the E10. But I do not understand
how the gap to the vine of leaf 7 on E10 is ragged, whereas the same gap on
E21 is crisp, clean, and sharp. How can this disparity be the result of uniform
wear. Was E21 re-tooled.
The 'slips' to leaf 9 appear to differ. The angle of the initial slips appears
to differ, as do the number of and the distance transversed by the upper slips.
doug
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1101 Posts |
Here's my theory as to how this die went from Viper's early state to Jim's late state after striking perhaps 100,000 coins.
The deterioration of the die is I believe due to the flow of metal of the struck coins to fill in the die and collar over a long period of use. The flow is perhaps more pronounced at the outer diameter of the coin.
That would cause the outer loops to have the most deterioration, which we see on the late state coin. Further in at the inner loops, There could be enough die wear to smooth out the gaps between loops 7 and 13 and still leave the main parts of the loops intact, so the gaps appear to have distinct ends. This could also account for the disappearance of the rust marks and clash marks over time.
To me, the slips on leaf 9 look the same, but due to the deterioration of the stem of leaf 9, They may appear to be different.
I could be totally wrong on all of this, but that would be my best guess to explain this kind of die wear.
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Pillar of the Community
New Zealand
1679 Posts |
Here is my E10---but what I want to know is it OBV8 or 8a   Cheers Don
Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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Replies: 21 / Views: 3,844 |
Posted 11/20/2016 01:21 am
