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Gold, Is One Mintage As Good As Another, Or.

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twslisa's Avatar
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 Posted 12/16/2016  10:19 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add twslisa to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
So I took the advice here and set up a spreadsheet that calculates the premiums on various kinds of gold coins, and the break even price point.

I notice that the Maple Leaf tends to go at a significantly lower premium than the American Gold Eagle, and some old gold coins from other countries (English Sovereigns, French 20 Francs, etc., obviously NOT collectible quality.) have a slightly lower premium percentage than similar quantities of bullion coins.

So my question is, is there a reason I should prefer one coin over another, perhaps a reason why the AGE is slightly more expensive than the CML?

Also, I notice that there are some rounds by non-government mints that sell at lower prices. If they are sold by dealers recommended here that have good BBB ratings, are they OK, or risky?

I guess the question is, is an ounce of gold an ounce of gold, or does it matter where it was made into a coin?

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nss-52's Avatar
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54283 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2016  12:45 pm  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
An ounce of gold actually is an ounce of gold and is worth the price of an ounce of gold.

What it is made into changes the price that people are willing to pay, but does not change the value of the gold content.

The price of any particular coin can be influenced by factors other than the gold content.

Design
Country of origin
Mintage
Date
Trust (that it is genuine)
Purity of coin (.999, .900, etc.)
Demand (driven by the above factors). This demand can vary based on the buyer's situation. Are they in the U.S., Canada, China, Europe? Taxes on various coins may also be a factor.

Can one predict demand? If you could, you could be mega rich.
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twslisa's Avatar
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 Posted 12/16/2016  1:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twslisa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks. A friend of mine has the impression that it's better to own AGE's because, he says, it is legal tender in the US. Given the face value of the coin is considerably less than the gold value, it seems to me that things would have to go awfully far south for that to matter, but I wanted to ask, in case I was missing something.

If gold is gold is gold, then it seems sensible for me to get the best price possible for the gold, regardless where the coin was minted.
Edited by twslisa
12/16/2016 1:16 pm
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nss-52's Avatar
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 Posted 12/16/2016  2:01 pm  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For the price of gold to go down to US$50 or less, one of two things have to happen:

1) The supply of gold increases so drastically that the price declines (it is no longer as rare as it is today).
2) The value of the dollar increases so drastically that it only takes US$50 to buy an ounce of gold.

When I think of things "going south", I think more along the lines of the US dollar declining in value. When the value declines it takes more dollars to buy an ounce of gold (conversely, you can receive more dollars when selling an ounce of gold). Anticipated future currency devaluation is one reason people buy gold.

Specifically, what is your purpose or purposes for owning gold?
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Andrew99's Avatar
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 Posted 12/16/2016  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It does not matter if you buy gold at $60 over spot or $20 over spot. What matters is whatever premium you pay, you need to get back when you sell. AGEs are more likely than other coins to retain their premium over spot. Some random issuer, that may not be the case. So you pay 60 over spot and end up selling at spot. That would suck in addition to gold prices changing.
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twslisa's Avatar
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 Posted 12/16/2016  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twslisa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Diversification, primarily. I can't control how the funds in my pension are invested (primarily stocks), so I want a hedge against another stock market decline and/or downturn. I moved my 401 and 457k to capital preservation funds--I realize I'm missing out on the fun right now, but since I'm already retired I can't rebuild if we have another recession, so I'm happier playing it safe. I also have a decent amount of equity in my house, though I do have some years left on my mortgage. Anyway, I decided to designate part of my savings for coins and precious metals. The coin part is for fun, though I do try to make sure I'm picking coins that ought to hold their value. My grandpa's coin collection is mostly well circulated silver, so I don't see much point in getting ASE's. What I don't have is gold, so I thought I'd try to pick some up.

ETA, the idea seems particularly attractive with gold prices being where they are. No guarantee they won't go lower, but given historical values, in the long run it seems like a sound idea.
Edited by twslisa
12/16/2016 2:40 pm
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Alpha2814's Avatar
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 Posted 12/16/2016  2:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alpha2814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In my opinion, you're right that gold is more likely to hold its value than circulated silver. If "the coin part is for fun" and you're looking for variety, modern gold commemoratives may be good for you. They're generally 1/4 ounce and 90% pure so they're affordable with a small premium for many issues.

There are also the First Spouse 1/2 ounce coins and Buffalos but those seem to carry a higher premium (though I haven't looked that closely). It is worth noting that those are all 99.99% pure, while the AGE is less than 92%.
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D0ubl3Eagle's Avatar
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 Posted 12/16/2016  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D0ubl3Eagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
IMHO, the 1oz of gold size whether it be in bar or coin offers the best combination of price, liquidity, and flexibility. A 10oz bar, for example, does offer a better price but at the cost of liquidity and flexibility. 10oz is a lot of money and many dealers may not have enough funds at that moment to purchase or would purchase at a large discount. The large wholesalers will be able to purchase at a fair price but if you are the person who doesn't want to mail it, then this may not be an option. For you, it may just be too much money and you won't be able to sell in amounts less than 10oz. With less than 1oz products, flexibility is not a problem. Liquidity usually not too much of an issue but bid/ask spreads may be wider. For example, the published buy prices on APMEX on generic British sovereigns are are about 92.3% of their sell prices. The other popular 1oz products like AGE, CML, and bars have buy prices between 95-97% of sell prices. Provident metals it is a similar story. The same 3 have buy prices around 96-97% whereas fractional AGE have buy prices around 95% and lower. Premiums are usually higher as a percent of melt. Premiums as a percent of melt do tend to go down as bullion prices go up and vice versa. The one non 1oz product that I can think of at this moment that has comparable spreads is the Mexican 50 pesos. In the end, buy what you like and is best for your situation whether that be AGE, CML, pre-1933 U.S, old European, bars, rounds, etc.


Quote:
a reason why the AGE is slightly more expensive than the CML?

I am not sure if it is the other way around in Canada but my guess is that people in the U.S. prefer something made by the U.S. government over something made by another government. The AGE and Buffalos are priced the same and if we compare coins of the same purity, the only differences between the Buffalos and CML are design and country of manufacture.

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 Posted 12/16/2016  5:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yup7676 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yes, gold is gold.... however, if there is a premium attached to it, then go with the coin that has that.

Heck yea I am out to make a buck if I sell, heaven forbid, so if I can collect that premium down the road, I am fine with it.

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twslisa's Avatar
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790 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2016  8:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twslisa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Im still resigned to the fact that I'll be paying a bit more premium for smaller rounds or coins. On my budget, if I want to still have a little money for, like life (and coins), it would take most of a year to save up enough to buy an ounce (let alone TEN)!
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joeysanders627's Avatar
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408 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2016  12:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joeysanders627 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gold is gold unless you are trying to invest in gold for the purpose of your IRA. Then your gold bullion must be 99.9% fineness or more.
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twslisa's Avatar
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790 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2016  6:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twslisa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I considered rolling part of my 401k, but I think I'll leave it as is for now. Any buying of coins and PMs will come out of disposable income, such as it is.
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moxking's Avatar
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17900 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2016  7:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It was only a couple weeks ago that Bobby was so inundated with fake gold bars on ebay that he asked no more reports for them to be submitted.

Buy from seriously reputable dealers.

If you can afford the slight increase in price, buy them already NGC TPG'd.
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joeysanders627's Avatar
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408 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2016  10:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joeysanders627 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If you can afford the slight increase in price, buy them already NGC TPG'd.


I agree with Moxking overall. My only disagreement is that he is putting too much faith in the slab. Don't ever just believe the slab. There are forgeries of that as well, especially when it comes to gold. I just think you should buy from reputable dealers only who have been around for quite some time. That will be your way of making the safest investment.
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Alpha2814's Avatar
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 Posted 12/17/2016  11:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alpha2814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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 Posted 12/19/2016  10:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jmgi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Premiums on American Gold Eagles are near the highest because we've had it drilled into our heads to buy American made products, and everyone charges more for them right on down the line, starting with the Mint. They know a certain amount of people will pay whatever the price is, because its American made, simple as that.
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