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Claudius Dupondius - Thoughts?

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Finn235's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2017  5:17 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Mt latest addition to budget portrait coins of Roman emperors

Claudius 41-54
AE Dupondius

TI CLAVDIVS CAESAR AVG PM TR P IMP, bare head left.
CERES AVGVSTA, Ceres, veiled, seated left, holding
grain ears and long torch, S-C across fields.

RIC 94; Sear 1855.

Claudius-Dupondius---Thoughts?
Claudius-Dupondius---Thoughts?

Got this one in ebay for a reasonable price with four other coins that were essentially culls. Reputable seller and very little competition due to the ruined reverse.

I had no doubt that this one was genuine until I weighed it--9.36 grams, or nearly 4 grams under weight. The more unsettling fact is that there is a similar coin on the fake coin reports, reported to be artificially aged with acid on the reverse. More disturbingly, that coin, my coin, and the Wildwinds example are all die matches.

What are your thoughts? Could environmental damage cause a coin to lose nearly 1/3 of its weight? Could it be an off-metal strike in regular bronze rather than orichalchum? Am I just being paranoid?
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lrbguy's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2017  5:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In view of the other reports you mention I don't think you are being paranoid. I think you are seeing rather clearly.

As they say, "just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they are NOT out to get you."
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2017  6:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I could see it being a little lite due to wear, but at 4 grams light it doesn't leave much doubt. It's interesting to see that the surface appears to have been smooth and the the obverse looks IMO to have been tooled.
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moxking's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2017  7:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A strange looking Dupe.

w echizento on that.
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2017  8:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Could environmental damage cause a coin to lose nearly 1/3 of its weight?


I don't think so. Or rather, not if this amount of detail (potential tooling notwithstanding) remains.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 01/26/2017  05:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
At 9.36 grams I can see where it would be a concern. But it does have a genuine look about it. The bust type seems to indicate a possible Spanish origin.
Ten grams would not be out of range for this type. My own example weighs 12.05 grams.
Fields look smoothed and possibly minor tooling.

Can you post pics of the die matches ?
That would be alarming but matches can be tricky identifying. Especially if we have some scraping or minor tooling.

I won't condemn this one until I see more evidence.
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 Posted 01/26/2017  05:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My own example

12.05 grams 26-7mm

Claudius-Dupondius---Thoughts?

Claudius-Dupondius---Thoughts?
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antwerpen2306's Avatar
Belgium
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 Posted 01/26/2017  10:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add antwerpen2306 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
with this weight , it could be an as ,if it exists with Ceres Augusta.albert
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Finn235's Avatar
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 Posted 01/26/2017  12:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to all for the replies.

I do wonder if perhaps this coin is an as rather than a dupondius? If so, it would only be about a gram light. The Ceres design was intended to only be a dupondius, but I suppose it would not have been difficult to put the wrong flan on the anvil. I am still up in the air on this one:

Concerns:
- Close (but not perfect) die match to documented fake on FORVM
- Extremely light weight
- Relief seems to drop too low between the eye and the nose. Likewise, something seems funny about the ear.
- Several small cracks in the flan, most prominently at about 1:00 on the first picture.
- The portrait does seem unusually good compared to the reverse and obverse legends.

Reassurances:
- Patina looks to be genuine, even if somewhat smoothed on the obverse
- Fine details in the letters match the Wildwinds example more closely than the one on the fake reports.
- Facial expression also matches the Wildwinds example better than the fake report, and the wear on the portrait probably preclude it being made from the same dies as the fake. It is not a high value coin, so it seems unlikely that a counterfeiter would go to such trouble to simulate moderate circulation.
- Damage to the reverse seems in line with aggressively treated bronze disease, which can explain why parts are well preserved and others ruined.
- 100% positive feedback seller that offers lifetime authenticity guarantee.
- Definitely not the notorious Bulgarian fake of the same type.

And since I am not familiar with the signs, where are you guys seeing evidence of tooling?
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