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 Replies: 11 / Views: 2,171 |
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New Member
United States
14 Posts |
Hello! I just bought this 1787 8 Real, and now that it's arrived, I'm afraid I bought a fake. It is in even better condition than the pictures look, and it just feels too good to be true for what I paid ($60). I have read many posts just like this one and tried to apply the information I've read, but I can't make a decision. If it is fake, I definitely want to send it back. So I'm hoping someone can offer a more qualified opinion. I'm attaching some pictures. They are from the listing. Let me know if I could take any angles that would be more helpful. Thank you!     |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1915 Posts |
I'll go out on a limb and say the images don't look right to me.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
First off,welcome.
The mantra with these (besides not buying such raw in the first place unless you're extremely well versed in the genre or purchasing from a highly reputable dealer who is) is get an accurate weight, and if that's not off, then determine a specific gravity.
Colligo ergo sum
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New Member
 United States
14 Posts |
Thanks Lucky-
The weight was part of what looked right to me. I thought 26.8 fell in the acceptable range. But maybe since its a little light but it isn't very worn down, that should have tipped me off?
I am fairly new to collecting, but this is one of the coins on my wish list right now. I want to get a raw one partly because of budget, but also because I like to feel a coin in my hands. So, getting a low quality one for cheaper is fine. I thought this one was cheap because it was cleaned and scratched, which would be fine with me.
But for this coin, is it pretty certain that this is counterfeit?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
While it may be "questionable" at first glance, to my eyes it's a genuine Lima product... displaying some of the typical planchet oddities of that mint in this period. Somewhat heavily cleaned, though, and perhaps formerly mounted (something going on near 12:00, but there's no top-down photo which would show w/certainty). I think "don't buy raw unless you're an expert" in a bit much... particularly if you're someone who is a semi-experienced coin guy in general, just new to Spanish material... BUT, if you're this concerned AFTER the fact, why did you buy this particular coin to begin with? I get wanting a budget piece, but if fake is a big concern, this piece - which has obvious features that certainly COULD be construed as signs of casting - was NOT the ideal starter piece. Interesting example (on a 1E) of what could go wrong with planchets out of Lima in tonight's Heritage weekly: https://coins.ha.com/itm/peru/peru-...1704-64359.s |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
 coasterboardThere are lots of threads here that describe what to look for when authenticating 8 reales. One of the keys is to look for two sections of the edge design that overlap. The overlaps will be on the opposite side and of the same length. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4883 Posts |
Since there's a reference to a "listing" at the beginning of this thread, I'm assuming it was bought via ebay (or worse, the site that shall not be named). Perhaps I'm overstating the expertise you ought to acquire before buying these raw ("buy the book before the coin"), but the fact is that many of this genre offered online are modern reproductions made to ensnare the unwary. There's a false comfort in the rationale, "Why would anyone go to the trouble of faking a common issue selling for just $60?" Even if (in order to be especially deceptive) it was made from silver, such an item might still only cost $20 to make nowadays, so there'd still be plenty of profit margin. The weight's good, but even allowing for the variances you encounter with these, the surfaces are suspicious. But mostly I worry about the general practice of purchasing this type remotely from somebody you don't know, that's just a really risky proposition. Colligo ergo sum
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New Member
United States
14 Posts |
Thanks Everyone! I definitely expected- and deserved- the lectures on prudency here. I acted very quickly, because it was an ebay auction. I was the third bidder and got in right under the gun. It was my first Real purchase, but I have read a lot online about them. I also own a 1/2 real (detector find) and an 8 Maravedis. Not that any of that gives me any authority to judge an ebay auction for an 8 Real. But I didn't go in completely blind. From what I've read, the biggest indicator would be the rim. This coin's rim has- conveniently?- a very worn rim in exactly 2 spots, exactly 180 degrees apart. There aren't any other areas that look like they overlap. In trying to figure out if this could be real, that is the most confusing point for me. So, I'd love some advice- if not about this coin, about buying an 8 Reales in general. I thought that ebay would be a fairly good source, as I have some recourse for returning an item. My local coin shop is very rude and overpriced, and at coin shows, I don't know who I can trust. If I were to want to buy a low-quality Real, just to have as a starter, where would I look? Is that even possible? Or is there no way to be sure without having an extensive knowledge first? And along those lines, does anyone have any suggestions for how I can learn more about these coins than just google searching? They really are beautiful, and I would love to be more informed. Thanks again for all your help! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1156 Posts |
If you want to collect these, then you will need to understand how they are counterfeited. There is no better source than the book, "Counterfeit Portrait Eight-Reales: The Un-Real Reales" by Robert Gurney. He goes by the name, swamperbob, on this site and there are many, many informative post here on this subject.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
-- Learn what genuine pieces should look like first. Peruse online numismatic auction archives, online inventory of well-known dealers (with nice clear pics)... at shows, examine as many as you can in hand. Then, read threads on this site in particular about obvious fakes - compare/contrast.
-- For your buying, perhaps START with some nice, cheap MINORS!! Aside from contemporary counterfeits (and you'd be rather lucky to stumble on one of those w/o knowing what you're doing), you can be fairly assured that you're dealing with genuine material in the under $25 range. Get some of those (learn your prices first), and you'll start getting a feel for what genuine regal emissions (heh, Beavis... he said 'emissions') should present as.
-- Again, knowing what your prices should be... Keep your eye out for problem pieces at problem prices. While there are certain sellers who make a habit out of buying junk and trying to find suckers, there are always some sellers who sell junk as... junk, priced accordingly. For example, if you know what you're doing, you can every so often find a nice holed piece - with good tone and strong detail - selling cheaply. Great way to see what a piece with perhaps "higher grade" detail SHOULD look like (in hand) w/o paying a ton or worrying as much about cost.
-- Once you start learning what's what... you can always sell off the junk if you wish and upgrade
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New Member
United States
14 Posts |
Hey everyone- Thanks again for all the feedback. I found a local coin vendor I trust and started learning more about the Reales. He showed me things to look at, and I bought a cheaper one that I am now fairly confident is real. I still want to keep learning about them, and I want to buy the book that was recommended. I tried to message Swamperbob directly, because he mentions that you can order directly from him, and I figure that helps him out more than buying off Amazon. But the forum won't let me PM anyone since I'm a new user. Is there a different way to get in touch with him? Thanks! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Hello and I can be reached using the addresses in the book they are accurate. Snail mail can be sent to Robert Gurney Swamperbob Associates PO Box 435 Hope Mills, NC 28348 Cost with the pair of discs with all the coins shown in jpg format is $40 postpaid. Amazon will not include the discs. You can also call me at (910) 425 - 1224. I keep irregular hours but I am normally here everyday at some times. |
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Replies: 11 / Views: 2,171 |
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Posted 01/26/2017 4:55 pm
