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How To Decide Which Coins To Send For Grading?

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Valued Member
christians86's Avatar
Norway
61 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  6:26 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add christians86 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Ok, so I'm gonna try prior to sending in coins for grading to look for my self if a coin will reach at least MS69.

I don't have any special equipment at my disposal now, so what do I need? The reason I as is that I live in Norway, so while the cost in the US is small, the same cost in Norway is aprox 2-3 times due to shipping, insurance etc.

What can I do? Thanks for your help in advance.

It's talk about about gold panda and Lunars to begin with. They are not in proof condition, and I have gloves that should work (cotton). Next step is the Great Britain beasts silver.
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moxking's Avatar
United States
17900 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  6:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Collectors set their own limits for both the TPG type and value threshold.

I send only to NGC if I expect the coin to be valued at a minimum of $200 or more.

Otherwise, I buy NGC to begin with and I don't have to worry about the fees.
Valued Member
christians86's Avatar
Norway
61 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  6:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add christians86 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe I was a bit to quick here, but I was thinking more in the way:

How to see if a coin has the potenial of reaching MS70/PF70?...by that; how to look for things that will make that hard..i.e. scracthes etc
Valued Member
christians86's Avatar
Norway
61 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  6:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add christians86 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Could this be a solution http://www.dx.com/no/p/um038-20-500....WI0vmBvhDAQ ? and use a plastic flip under the coin to avoid damage, and handle with cotton gloves?
As the cost for grading is 500 NOK per coin, just dropping two coins because I know it won't reach the minimum of MS69/PF69 will save in the cost.
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moxking's Avatar
United States
17900 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  7:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coin grading should be done with magnification in the 3-5X range. Otherwise you'll see problems that really don't exist.

The best way to learn grading of 69 versus 70 is to look at lots of coins already assigned those grades by NGC or PCGS.

Find the minor problem on the 69's first, preferably of a type you are considering submitting. Once you are familiar with what takes the coins to 69, try to find any problem on the 70s. You shouldn't be able to if the TPG s are doing their job.
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coin197's Avatar
United States
1963 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  7:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coin197 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The British Queens beast set is notorious for being nearly impossible for getting a MS 70. I recommend NOT sending those in.
Valued Member
christians86's Avatar
Norway
61 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  7:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add christians86 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Moxking: may I ask if you know how the TGPs consider gold coins vs silver in regards to MS70? Is there any slack when it comes to 69 and 70, or should I follow:

66 Mint State 66 MS66 Coin has above average quality of strike and full original mint luster, with no more than two or three minor, but noticeable, contact marks. A few very light hairlines may show under (6x+) magnification, or there may be one or two light, scuff marks showing on frosted surfaces or in the field. The eye appeal must be above average and very pleasing for the date and originating mint. Copper coins display full original or lightly toned color.
67 Mint State 67 MS67 Coin has a sharp strike with full, original luster, May have three or four very small contact marks and a single, more noticeable, but not detracting mark. On comparable coins, one or two small single hairlines may show under (6x+) magnification, or one or two partially hidden scuff marks or flaws may be present. Eye appeal is exceptional. Copper coins have lustrous original color.
68 Mint State 68 MS68 Coin has a sharp strike with full original luster, with no more than four, lightly-scattered, contact marks or flaws. No hairlines or scuff marks show. Copper coins have lustrous original color. Eye appeal is exceptional.
69 Mint State 69 MS69 Coin has a sharp strike with full original luster, with no more than two small non-detracting contact marks or flaws. No hairlines or scuff marks are visible. Eye appeal is exceptional.
70 Mint State 70 MS70 The perfect coin, as minted. Has no trace of wear, handling, scratches or contact with other coins from a (5x) magnification. Coins in this grade are almost non-existent in older coins with very few examples known. Copper coins are bright with full original color and luster. Eye appeal is exceptional.


all the way out as a point of reference? I will off course use my own MS70/PF70, but just to be sure.


@coin197: I know they are....however, if I buy them for the sake of bullion which I planned. But I cherry pick prior to sending in those that have a chance, it might work? I mean...if I use a microscope and set aside a day or two it should work?
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Earle42's Avatar
United States
10038 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  8:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Grading is not a science. My local coin shop owner says that he took did a personal study. He asked all the dealers he knows who annually send in a monster box of American Silver Eagles to be graded. He found out that each one said they consisyently get back 20% of the box as MS70s and the rest will be MS69 ad lower.

He said he is totally convinced the TPGs just randomly grab 20% of the ASEs randomly from the box to label as MS70 and the rest will be graded lower lower. The consistency of the number across a wide band of dealers seem to make this theory credible.

When you add to this that there are always people questioning why a certain coin was graded like it was, and the fact people used to crack out and re-submit coins that were then assigned different grades also seems to shed some light on the reality of the situation.

Grading by the TPGs is not an exact science. The TPGS never describe WHY they graded a certain coin at the level they did. This also would, and maybe does, allow them to reward customers with large submissions every year with better graded coins.

Its a gamble. But it keeps going because so many people have a misplaced faith in the TPGs, so they buy the plastic and not the coin.

For the cost it would take you to ship them, I think you will spend a LOT more money than you would by either buying some already graded as MS70, and think you would take a big loss if you were planning on trying to sell them after you get them back from the TPG.
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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christians86's Avatar
Norway
61 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  8:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add christians86 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Earle42: Not sure if you just advised me against sending in at all, or if following the guide I found still would end up confusing me as the TGPs could be more forgiving/or not than the reference implies?
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Earle42's Avatar
United States
10038 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  9:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just look at the forum here and see how many times people are so very upset with the TPGs for grades they put on slabs. They have no accountability and this makes it easy for them to make money.

Here is some factual education about the coin grading/slabbing companies:
1. The major numismatic misconception is the need for grading services. The rest of the world looked at the U.S. as being foolish when these systems were initiated. Non Americans were questioning why anyone would pay good money for someone else to tell them what they were well capable of doing for themselves if they would just read the guidelines in any readily available source.

But the self-proclaimed (note that term) experts founding these companies knew there is a psychological desire in humans to have an "expert's" stamp of approval. The dollar signs were too tempting and so we have coin slabbing mills. They were in the country whose people, at the time, had the most disposable income (hey, they were literally selling pet rocks in stores here!) and the opportunity to take advantage of the situation was just too great for them so ignore.

This led to major damage in the hobby:

1. Slabbing refocused the hobby's entire attention to the slabbed items while reducing everything but keys and semi-keys to "junk silver" (or copper where applicable).
- Older collectors who remember these services starting up remember the hobby was a lot more fun. Why? It was a time when every date/MM combo on a coin had its own perceived value. Coins of lesser mintage were usually assigned higher prices since they were more difficult to locate.
But now if its not a key - a coin is simply melt value and something to plug a hole in the album with. Thanks for nothing.

2. Special designations such as FBL, FSB etc. were introduced.
- People who had "gem BU" coins all of a sudden found their top coins were not so special anymore b/c they were not perfect strikes. The value of BU coins suffered. Granted the special designations are pointing out the best strikes - but now "gem BU" means a lot less than it used to.

3. TPGs knew people would pay for more options added to multiples of the exact same coin such as different artwork on the labels. It was from this forum I learned "First Day of Issue" are not actually what they claim.

4. The birth of a second level of security blanket being desired by the public:
Back when the slabs started - and will use the words we did back then - no offense to anyone reading this - we joked that someday someone else would see another business opportunity and start to offer a service that would charge people to check the TPGS had done their job properly. But we knew no one would ever be that much of a sucker. Guess what? Green Bean stickers now automatically make a slabbed coin worth more.

And it was just a year or so ago that there was a company trying to cash in and check the CACs!


5. Ignoring ages old technology to eliminate human error:
- In the 90s all the main slabbing mills invested into a computerized grading system which would have made a science out of grading instead of it being based on human opinion. The suddenly the systems disappeared. The technology WAS available. Such a scanning device has been in industry since at least the early 90s (I know - I used a parts scanner capable of evaluating any number of points on manufactured parts down to thousandths of an inch to evaluate if the part was within quality standards).
So what happened? Let's imagine companies put off implementing the system for 30-40 years. When the time is right (when most key coins are already slabbed) the "New and Improved" system is introduced to the market. People once again will pay them for the very same coins already in slabs! Why? Marketing... just how can you sleep at night not knowing if your MS70 coins is REALLY MS70? Remember - human error could have been involved.
We already see people not sure enough of the slabbing that they actually fork out more money for a green bean sticker! So how hard will it be for these companies to yet push another grading sham on the public?

In this day when our phone in our pocket are capable of facial recognition, do we really think the slabbers are not capable of a totally scientific method of grading? Of course they are... and have been for at least 20 years. But they have been protecting themselves and holding back. Why? The almighty dollar - in their own pockets - is where their concerns lie - not the good of the hobby as a whole.

And now that they have been around for so long that enough new collectors have just grown up with slabbing being a part of the system, so there are people who, without researching and ever questioning the systems, believe slabbing has been a good thing and actually serves the purposes they claimed to have been started for. Of course these people have to ignore the fact that a business such as CAC can actually exist... but that's OK - there is psychological security people use to ignore opposing ideas.

Legitimate uses:
1. I personally see a legit use for TPGs. I had some coins slabbed so if anything happens to me, my wife will know these need to be researched before just dumping them.

2. They also are doing a fair job of detecting fakes... but anyone with a little research can do the same (weight, specific gravity, magnetism, etc.). And the TPGS have been known to slab fakes.

3. If a person is in coins to make money - slabs will add more money to the price paid by a lot of buyers b/c people will buy the slab and not the coin.

My local shop owner said he used to be paid to grade for one of the main companies. They were paid by how many coins they got through. He said it was fast. I talked to another old friend of mine who had also been a grader, he said the same thing -without mentioning I had talked with another former grader. Both of these guys are respected and known dealers in the state of PA, and both, with first hand experience, helped me understand just how much the faith people put in these "professionals" is sadly misplaced.

The following is sort of tongue in cheek, but its a graphic I once made of how I see the future:

How-To-Decide-Which-Coins-To-Send-For-Grading?

I could go on, but will stop with this book!
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
Bedrock of the Community
Earle42's Avatar
United States
10038 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  9:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
oops - forgot to add. If anyone LIKES collecting slabs for the slab and labels - then all the more power to them. I can understand people liking the looks of slabbed rows of coins.

A hobby is for FUN. So we collect what we like. A hobby ceases to be fun if we feel peer pressure enough to have others' ideas dictate what we collect for "fun."
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
Pillar of the Community
kanga's Avatar
United States
5825 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  11:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coins are generally slabbed for the following reasons.
In order of decreasing importance for me:

1. Authentication (is the coin real)
2. Originality (has the coin been cleaned or otherwise tampered with)
3. Grade

Some people may add a personal reason such as a bequeath from a will of a treasured relative.

Those are the reasons for considering getting a coin slabbed.

Then there's the cost.
For me a coin has to catalog at least $200.
Valued Member
christians86's Avatar
Norway
61 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2017  06:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add christians86 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The question now is mostly if there are difference in how NGC considers gold and silver. Do they follow the Sheldon scale perfectly, or is something permissible and yet can become MS70/PF70?
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trout1105's Avatar
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2017  07:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The question now is mostly if there are difference in how NGC considers gold and silver. Do they follow the Sheldon scale perfectly, or is something permissible and yet can become MS70/PF70?


ANY blemish or fault regardless of how small its is on a coin will preclude a 70 grade when a coin is graded by either PCGS or NGC.
Why would you think that NGC would be any different?
Valued Member
christians86's Avatar
Norway
61 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2017  07:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add christians86 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it has something to do with some dealers in Norway when using the gradescale. But, it also has to do with how I judge samples...thanks to your reply Trout1105 I now know what to look for :) It makes life easier when juding what to send in and not :)

thanks everyone...tomorrow I will get a 5x magnification on the coins that was supposed to go in for grading this time...maybe I will send inn far fewer than planned.


oh, and for the second question: can conservation salvage small blemishes, or is it a waste of money?
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trout1105's Avatar
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2017  08:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I usually take high resolution images of each coin that I am thinking about sending away to be graded.
You can view these sort of images at a very high magnification on your computer screen without having to squint through a loupe and it makes grading the coin so much easier and in my opinion far more accurately than just using a loupe.
These images are also very handy to have just in case the TPG damages your coin.
If you are looking for 69 and up coins then reject ANY coins with faults regardless of how insignificant you think they are and your success rate will improve dramatically.

As far as getting a coin "conserved" to achieve a 70 grade that is pretty much a pipe dream as no restoration techniques will be able to restore a coin to a FDC/70 grade.

I wish you good luck with your submission and as I live in Australia I know all too well the added expense that collectors outside the US have to pay to get their coins graded by NGC/PCGS.
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